AC4 and fA, balanced or not ?

[Hollywood]

In chat yesterday TM and I were having a conversation about balance in AC games. I stated: "i doubt there will ever be a balanced ac game"

 

Here is an excerpt from the conversation:

 

[LiveWire] 2:40 pm: you're trying to tell me that AC4 and FA are completely balanced with the current revisions ?

[TMRaven] 2:42 pm: ac4 was ya

[TMRaven] 2:42 pm: not completely balanced, that's impossible for any game

[TMRaven] 2:42 pm: but balanced enough to the point where it was competitively viable

[LiveWire] 2:42 pm: and FA ?

[TMRaven] 2:43 pm: when I look at FA

[TMRaven] 2:43 pm: I saw the parts themselves were pretty balanced

[TMRaven] 2:43 pm: but the mechanics of the game to being pretty bad

[TMRaven] 2:43 pm: the latest revisions of FA and AC4 wouldn't need a banlist if that's what you're thinking

[LiveWire] 2:44 pm: but how many people would agree with that statement

[LiveWire] 2:44 pm: ?

 

So the question is: Is AC4 and FA balanced in all aspects with the current revision ?

 

Note: I would like to see the responses from both the PS3 and 360 players.

 

Please keep things civil.

Edited February 20, 2010 by LiveWire

[█␢█]

[TMRaven] 2:43 pm: I saw the parts themselves were pretty balanced

[TMRaven] 2:43 pm: but the mechanics of the game to being pretty bad

I agree with that. There doesn't seem to be any one build that I think would set itself far above the rest. The closest I can think of is the combination of 063AN arms and the Ekhazar core, but even then it's still just high tier, not banlist-able. Many things counter many other styles to the point where it's pretty hard to find one that can play well against a majority of them, partly because skill still plays some part in your win percentages, I find.

 

Still, though, can they do better? Yes, of course. The netcode and ping in the current gen send many parts, which should work otherwise (i.e. Bazookas, kojima, flash/shock rockets, and even hi-lasers to some extent), to the trash, drop others to a lower tier (i.e. Sniper rifles/cannons, shotguns, grenades), and makes other illegitimate for competitive scenes (i.e. Blades and add-boosters).

 

If they did get around to fixing the netcode, hypothetically. I think they'd need to rework some stats because they way I see it, some of the parts that work in the current regulations are able to do so because FROM changed the stats to compensate for the delay (for example how machine guns can do monstrous amounts of damage from quite some range away; so imagine that same damage output without any sort of ping).

Edited February 20, 2010 by /b/

[Pendragon]

Needs a few balancing updates like when it comes to kojima and whatnot. Otherwise it's not too bad. I see alot of people complain about QB causing lag online.

 

And of course when From attempts to fix that in the next game, people are quick to bitch before it's even released and-

 

Oh. Sorry. I was about to go into a rant again.

[Harakiri Tiger]

Yah, LAN AC4 and FA are a totally different monster from online 4/fA.

 

Still, even in LAN I wouldn't call the game unbalanced. An MG doing high damage isn't such a big deal when it gets cut off from firing by zook rounds every second or so. Especially when you can dual wield a weapon with that Zook. Scrapes from shell weapons still cause stun, as well. You'd be surprised how well the LAN of AC4/fA works out.

 

I'd definitely say that AC4/fA are the most balanced AC games to date, by a long shot.

[Exorcet]

AC4 1.6 is the best AC has ever been balance wise, but there are still some problems

 

-AC4 never solved the booster issue (POLARIS, VIRTUE > all else)

-LW arms are trash except for JUDITH

-JUDITH and LINSTANT gens need a bit more EN

 

FA is better than some past games, but took some steps backwards compared to 1.6, there is a multi tiered system in place which makes bans redundant, though I wouldn't mind seeing the absolute best stuff canned, like WG core and arms, and LATONA legs.

[█␢█]

Though I wouldn't mind seeing the absolute best stuff canned, like WG core and arms, and LATONA legs.

I'm still not getting that. The White Glint parts are good, sure, but I've yet to see anyone with those parts use them in and get me to think, "Gaaaaah, the only reason I lost was because he was using those WG parts." At least, that's the sort of mindset that comes to mind for me when I hear "absolute best"; I'd expect said parts to verge game-breaking/end-all status.

[SUMERIAN BLOOD GOD]

I agree with /b/. WG core/arms get no shoulder weapons. That alone is a big balancing factor.

 

Latona legs are ugly. That balances them in my eyes.

[Exorcet]

When looking at stats, it's rare for me to justify a LW or MW core over WG, though the part isn't invincible. It's like MOB in SL I guess. And in FA's case, lag > tier.

 

It's got ALIYA weight with HOGIRE def (and AP?) coupled with low drain. The core is pretty much weight vs def, so it's no contest really. There is stab in FA, but even then, the core is only one piece, and WG's is at least average. At least with the arms, ENWS isn't amazing, but everything else is top class, so you're getting the best armor for your weight class without losing stats in any other area.

 

 

EDIT

 

I forgot, dual PITONE is ridiculous in AC4.

 

And on shoulders, I can't see any set of them that's worth 500 def (which is essentially what you get for free from WG given the weight). Missiles? 203 is fine on it's own, koji and large jousting doesn't require extensions either. ECM? They're drainy (I think) and not amazing effective. PA molders? I honestly don't remember the stats haha, but no one uses them. AA isn't all that great either, so I'd settle for no extensions over them.

 

And yes LATONA legs are ugly (as are most new FA parts), but the stats are that good.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Exorcet

[█␢█]

And these differences make it the "absolute best"? I can't seem to give it more credit than "some pretty good parts"--just like Ekhazar arms/core or 063AN arms or Aaliyah/L.

[Exorcet]

Yes, anyone who agrees with my build logic should think the same, that WG is great. The problem (for my side in this argument) is, not everyone agrees with my build logic.

 

Let's bring in stats and make the argument more concrete.

 

(weight, drain, AP, def s, def e, PAR, PAD, stab)

 

WG

2229

2357

14601

3194

2463

6006

187

515

 

ALIYA

2282

2940

13208

2573

2312

6051

221

466

 

LANCEL

2341

2615

14288

2769

2687

5962

210

491

 

HOGIRE

2612

2670

14976

2894

2487

5731

199

516

 

063AN****** see bottom

2921

2455

15066

3415

2186

5646

171

546

 

For the first part of the comparison, just ignore WG's extensionlessness

 

Weight wise puts WG and ALIYA at a clear advantage, with LANCEL just behind and HOGIRE at a disadvantage.

Drain puts WG at a clear advantage with LAN/HOG in the middle and AL at a disadvantage

 

In the defensive stats WG is either best or second best in AP and def s. The AP lead isn't astonishing, but the def s is gap is huge. WG is 400 weight less than HOGIRE (which practically puts it a class down in weight) and yet has 300 more def s. Basically an AC with HOGIRE car stands to gain 300 def while freeing up 400 weight. Naturally one would expect a severe disadvantage for such a gain (for now we're excluding extensions), but there isn't really one to be seen. Def e is essentially the same, PAR goes to WG for a moderate advantage and WG has a small PAD loss compared to HOGIRE. There is a stab difference of 1. There is virtually no reason to even look at HOGIRE.

 

Comparing ALIYA with WG leads to a page of red stats with the exception of PA, and in truth, this is only PAD. The difference is notable, however it comes at the cost of 1400 AP, 600 def s, 135 def e, 50 stab, 50 weight, and 600 drain. ALIYA is pointless.

 

LANCEL fairs better (it's higher tier than ALIYA or HOGIRE), it's only 100 more weight than WG and has only moderate drain (still 250 more than WG however), but there is still a def gap. 350 def s, -200 def e (finally a real gain compared to WG), -400 AP (another gain, but small), -20 PAD, 25 stab. If one really needed EN def, LANCEL could be considered a better part, but that EN def would cost a lot in terms of def s and drain. But the real killer is that it's probably easier to just gen EN def from some other part, such as the legs or head.

 

Given this, would you consider WG superior or broken (remember, we're pretending extensions don't exist or can be put on WG)?

 

If yes than the real discussion is on the effectiveness of extensions themselves. (Yes I really did write that much just to say this). I've said what I think about them, how about you?

 

 

EDIT******

I should probably throw in 63 core (about LANCEL tier I suppose, in my opinion). It finally surpasses WG's def s by ~250, but at 300 cost in def e, 100 cost in drain, and 700 cost in weight. The weight difference is unattractive to a LW, but a heavier AC might not mind and go for the solid def, however if you look at the average def, you're not really gaining much because all the def s you gained cuts your def e. Unless you don't mind lop sided def (and needless additional weight) this should concern you. 63's other gain is stab, 546 to 515. It's not huge but it is noticable (I'm not saying much because I don't really have a feel for stab stats, as I ignore them completely).

 

063AN

2921

2455

15066

3415

2186

5646

171

546

Edited February 21, 2010 by Exorcet

[Harakiri Tiger]

I most definitely consider extensions to be worth it. 1 Volley of BFF supports hitting your WG core will negate all the benefits it gave you at the beginning of the match.

 

 

 

EDIT: It's kind of like trying to argue that an OB core without AMS is better than one with AMS because it has slightly better stats in LR, but won't let you equip extensions. It just won't cut it, cuz someone can equip early drop extensions just to score the lead and make up for the difference all the stats on the extensionless core gave at the beginning of the fight. Something like RM+Nymphe. Nymphe is still great all by itself, but by tacking on RM you can easily overcome any advantage Chronus might have given the lighter player. Afterwards you can drop your extensions and take a full advantage of the fight. At the very least, the playing field is instantly evened.

 

I consider broken parts to be things like the TP Booster from LR. They cause a lockdown in game mechanics. Other parts are simply banned for flavor/variety concepts. Not because they break the mechanics. The only reason you can consider WG core ban-able would be for varieties sake, not for balances sake.

[█␢█]

No, I wouldn't really. I'll give superior, sure, but superior has never always equaled broken in my book. You're talking about differences of only several hundred in defenses and only one thousand in AP which is, to me, well within the ballpark for being balanced. I wouldn't be able to give off exact numbers, but I'd think that these changes would only result in damage reduction in the teens against rifles (rifles just because I'm most familiar with their damage outputs).

 

If I were to categorize something as the "absolute best," there would be quite some margin of difference (I'm feeling maybe 30-45% more for equal or less weight/drain?). Like in AC4, Gan01-SS-G/GL could be considered the "absolute best" because it gave a relatively nice EN pool and it had the top EN output (even if only by a few hundred, I think). The KPO never seemed to be much of a problem; I don't remember a large advantage from bringing other generators vs. Gan01 generators, but I could be wrong. Anyways, I can see how that would change things up if you all of a sudden said, "No more Gan01 generators!"

 

As for extensions, I think they have alot of benefits. 061ANRM alone would be enough to bump an AC up a tier, in my opinion. If not those, flares have a pretty large niche, and the other relations have some good use too.

[Exorcet]

I most definitely consider extensions to be worth it. 1 Volley of BFF supports hitting your WG core will negate all the benefits it gave you at the beginning of the match.

 

 

How can you try and base the usefulness on one hit? Thinking like this, than the advantage of WG is also negated by a PITONE shot, burst of MG damage, etc. And it's not about the extensions.

 

It's about performance over the duration of the match. If the BFF extensions are adding enough damage rate to overcome the added def of WG core, than they are useful.

 

Also, I forgot to mention flares before. They are probably the best of the extensions, but not really necessary beyond tanks, and possibly HW's. Most missiles can be frequently avoided by LW's and flares themselves do not present a method of total missiles negation.

[Harakiri Tiger]

How can you try and base the usefulness on one hit?

 

Very easily. The only strong reason behind WG's supposed superiority is based off of it's defense and AP to it's weight. The miniscule weight change doesn't grant any special ability to dodge in fA. This isn't LR where 100Kg of underweighting causes massive acceleration changes in your AC.

 

Since it's Defense and AP, you have a basic concept that WG core revolves around. Total Damage Potential. This is expressed in a simple stat that isn't viewable, total AP. TAP. Your defense can be retroactively applied to your AP total to determine the total damage your AC can take before reaching 0. Sawa has 1,000 Attack Power. You have 50% damage reduction vs EN. You have 8k AP. Your TAP is therefore 16k. That stat, TAP, is all that you're basing your WG core's superiority off of. Therefore, when damaged with a weapon, it's value automatically degrades.

 

I don't consider 100-300Kg of weight to be important in FA. The weight of your extensions would be more likely to be felt, and those can be dropped. The energy drain would be useful when compared to other cores, but all the other stats on WG are also pointless or negligible as well. So we're left with a defense/AP part. In other words, a TAP comparison.

 

To determine whether it's worth it you'd have to know something about the defense formula's so you can guess what your total TAP is and whether it's truly worth it.

 

Btw, people have been making TAP based part decisions for a long time. Weapons like Harpy2 totally removed tanks from the game because they shat all over their TAP just be existing. Cores like UA and boosters like TAP directly affected TAP by artificially, and very consistently, raising it. Weight/TAP ratio is only important in games where small changes cause massive changes in TAP or when your weight change is drastic in standard games.

 

 

EDIT: I'll explain this all more clearly when I get home later tonight. As of right now, I'm trying to do too many things at once in the store.

[Exorcet]

Very easily. The only strong reason behind WG's supposed superiority is based off of it's defense and AP to it's weight. The miniscule weight change doesn't grant any special ability to dodge in fA. This isn't LR where 100Kg of underweighting causes massive acceleration changes in your AC.

I agree, I'm not suggesting that the weight differences of the cores alone will necessarily be perceived on a macro scale. What is more likely to be perceived is the defense difference of the cores alone. However, weight can add up. Analyzing the other frame parts in the same manner as the cores can lead to similar gains, and in the end you might find a 500-1000 weight difference with no def penalty vs 'lower tier' parts.

Since it's Defense and AP, you have a basic concept that WG core revolves around. Total Damage Potential. This is expressed in a simple stat that isn't viewable, total AP. TAP. Your defense can be retroactively applied to your AP total to determine the total damage your AC can take before reaching 0. Sawa has 1,000 Attack Power. You have 50% damage reduction vs EN. You have 8k AP. Your TAP is therefore 16k. That stat, TAP, is all that you're basing your WG core's superiority off of. Therefore, when damaged with a weapon, it's value automatically degrades.

Going with that, there's not really a problem then. WG's TAP is certainly better than ALIYA's, it's very likely better than HOGIRE's (and you're getting weight with that, whether you care or don't. But when you get something 'for free', I like to consider it an advantage. The weight loss by going HOGIRE -> WG doesn't really have any drawbacks, and even if the weight doesn't double your speed [it won't], it might help you fit other parts on, etc [but this is FA where load is infinite, LATONA legs and drain are a better example of this type of trade off since gen weights are so widely spaced]). TAP analysis with WG vs LANCEL gets trickier. Below, you mentioned that boosters can change TAP, so it's clearly a sum of parts thing, where each part on the AC effects the TAP either through stats or effect in play. Doing raw, by stat analysis, WG has better TAP than LANCEL (the average def and AP are higher for WG). However, the EN def on LANCEL is higher by a noticeable amount. If the AC in question (or game in question) has a good method for dealing with solid weapons, LANCEL would get the win, as point for point, def e is more valuable than def s. WG has the def s advantage; if there is a need for def e, there are a number of parts that can provide it (LATONA arms/head/legs, TELLUS arms/head/legs, LANCEL legs, etc), so perhaps there is a better way to get it than LANCEL core, as you keep WG's benefits, which are harder to imitate, and also get LANCEL's.

 

Basically, by having super high def, WG's TAP is better, so your argument doesn't really counter mine, but helps it for a different perspective, unless...

I don't consider 100-300Kg of weight to be important in FA. The weight of your extensions would be more likely to be felt, and those can be dropped. The energy drain would be useful when compared to other cores, but all the other stats on WG are also pointless or negligible as well. So we're left with a defense/AP part. In other words, a TAP comparison.

 

To determine whether it's worth it you'd have to know something about the defense formula's so you can guess what your total TAP is and whether it's truly worth it.

 

Unless I'm ignorant. I don't know if you'r implying that you know something that statistically invalidates my argument (please share) or if you're implying that my argument is based on a loose guess at best. First approximation (def is proportional to the def stat value) says WG wins TAP. However, I'm fairly sure that this isn't the case, and only a good but basic approximation.

 

And on useless stats, I agree that all PA and stabs stats mentioned are worthless for the most part, I only included them for the sake of totality and on the chance that someone brought them up.

 

Btw, people have been making TAP based part decisions for a long time. Weapons like Harpy2 totally removed tanks from the game because they shat all over their TAP just be existing. Cores like UA and boosters like TAP directly affected TAP by artificially, and very consistently, raising it. Weight/TAP ratio is only important in games where small changes cause massive changes in TAP or when your weight change is drastic in standard games.

You could say that my slight nod to 063AN was a TAP decision (if I'm understanding correctly). I did say that heavier AC's won't really mind the weight. Get heavy enough overall and def > def/weight with lower absolute def. In the case of WG, I think going from HOGIRE frame weight to WG frame weight is a note worthy change, even more so when you don't lose def in the process. ALIYA to WG, and perhaps LANCEL to WG aren't really that different when it comes to weight, but they certainly are when it comes to def. So either way, WG wins the TAP comparison [by my analysis, if for example, one did not consider HOGIRE frame -> WG frame different in TAP, then the two would be equals].

[IronSoul]

WG core had more of an edge in 1.2 and 1.3 (though I'm not sure about earlier, especially with Muskingum the way it was, and with no ability to shoot down or run from missiles really). However, in 1.4, flares are really good and have tones of ammo, ECM's pretty effective, some nice missile combos use shoulders, P Marrow still has uses, etc. The lack of shoulder parts really matter more in 1.4 with the improvement most of them got. That and stability (which I know you don't care about) has lately put Ekhazar over WG (or maybe Latona in your case for drain, if you were to hypothetically go that way). WG's good, but I'd say it's more like upper mid tier in terms of overall performance (though it's probably still one of the top cores, in lieu of any really good midweight core besides Ekhazar, Lancel is okay).

 

As for overall balance, Autosight could make certain frames in AC4 total bullshit, but that's more mechanic than part balance. I'd say 1.6 AC4 was the most balanced overall for parts. FA could probably get away with that even with the higher part amount, but From would need a new reg for that and I imagine they're too busy with AC5 among other things to work on that. Any reg that would turn off the community right now mid hype would probably be a bad idea anyway.

 

Although, Raiden Quads would probably be broken on LAN. They're already top tier with grenade lag. OPS would probably be bullshit too without lag.

[Harakiri Tiger]

I'm making a large post about TAP, TDP, and Usability. I'll make it a separate topic, though. I feel it can benefit the community and especially the wiki if it's in an easier to find place where we can discuss the concepts. After I've finished the thread and made sure it's as user friendly as I can make it (Small), I'll come back to this thread and make my points about the WG Core and such.

[Exorcet]

If I were to categorize something as the "absolute best," there would be quite some margin of difference (I'm feeling maybe 30-45% more for equal or less weight/drain?). Like in AC4, Gan01-SS-G/GL could be considered the "absolute best" because it gave a relatively nice EN pool and it had the top EN output (even if only by a few hundred, I think). The KPO never seemed to be much of a problem; I don't remember a large advantage from bringing other generators vs. Gan01 generators, but I could be wrong. Anyways, I can see how that would change things up if you all of a sudden said, "No more Gan01 generators!"

 

 

That certainly would change things, though I don't see it in the same way you do. In 1.4 AC4, gens were admittedly unbalanced, but 1.6 is the focus of discussion, and pretty much every gen was usable besides the two super light ones. However, it's not like FA where you just pay more weight for more EN. In AC4, cap mattered, and KP wasn't abundant.

 

For a mobile LW, I do agree that SS-G/GL were probably the best gens. LW's were fast enough to avoid PA constant busting and with high cap (and ENO) they could move all day long, thus giving them more offensive and defensive options. With backpedaling as strong as in AC4, CQC's would want options.

 

However, go up a class to MW's, and KP gains a bit of importance. LW's toting SG's, GL's, MG's, etc could stick to you enough to rip PA or keep it low consistently. Add to that missiles like DEARBORN and OSAGE, and KP can certainly be helpful. If the MW player had a defensive style, cap drops in importance, as he probably wouldn't need to make complex maneuvers to close range. He'd only need enough ENO to keep reacting to the aggressor. ENO and KP were bundled in gens like ALIYA, MAXWELL, and HECTOR. They were far from useless and perhaps preferable in situations like the one I described.

 

Then there is the heavy class. KP is definitely good to have as a defense against aggressive, mobile LW's. High KP meant your PA was off for less time, and that everytime you weren't being pounded by fire, you KP would raise higher and boost your def. Factor in the defensive nature of HW's/tanks, and ENO+KPO >> cap. MAXWELL and ALIYA shine on HW's, and I really wouldn't recommend going GAN on such designs.

 

So basically, removing GAN's would result in a change, but not an overall game breaking change. You'd really only be hurting certain play styles and causing them to become lower tier (though HECTOR and such were more than doable with LW's, so maybe not). High mobility LW's and EN weapons users would suffer, but the entire metagame wouldn't be rewritten.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Exorcet

[█␢█]

Well then all the better, I suppose. I'll spin it around and compare it to your "absolute best" parts!

 

Would removing Glint core/arms and Latona legs result in an "overall game breaking change"? Would it go so far as to hurt any style, even? I don't see how a few hundred points here and there would be interesting if it ceased to exist.

[Exorcet]

The removal of WG and LATONA wouldn't do much to change the metagame. FA has a multi tiered part system. For instance, ban WG core, and then LANCEL is great. Parts are pretty much better/worse clones of each other.

 

When I said absolute best, I meant that those parts are at the top of the tier chain. In my view, there isn't much reason to use anything else because they are simply better than their competitor parts.

[SUMERIAN BLOOD GOD]

But does that mean the game's unbalanced? That's the question being asked here.

[Exorcet]

Based soley on my claims:

 

Style wise, no

 

Parts wise, yes

 

 

Edit - That makes more sense

Edited February 21, 2010 by Exorcet

[Mom]

The removal of WG and LATONA wouldn't do much to change the metagame.

 

Then WG or Latona shouldn't be talked about in a thread that deals with the balance of a game/games in comparison to their predecessors.

[IronSoul]

The removal of WG and LATONA wouldn't do much to change the metagame. FA has a multi tiered part system. For instance, ban WG core, and then LANCEL is great. Parts are pretty much better/worse clones of each other.

 

When I said absolute best, I meant that those parts are at the top of the tier chain. In my view, there isn't much reason to use anything else because they are simply better than their competitor parts.

 

Yeah but that's fairly inevitable in most AC parts are like that, however, calling the parts here aren't quite so much as bad as you're describing. A domino effect like that was completely inevitable in LR because the tier gaps were so large. There's a gap between say...Lancel and Aliya, but there's a more subtle gradient in FA, and some arguable merits to "lower" tier parts. Like Ekhazar or not, it has its uses to a lot of people. Lahire has merits, Lancel still has some uses. Certain combinations of parts can also mix together to meet some of the more top tier parts. Agryros/A is a good example of that.

[Mom]

I don't know what you mean with huge tier gaps in LR.

 

Take the cores as one example:

 

UA is at the top, but our regulations make it so it can't equip hangars. That alone brings U4, UL2, EOS and 99UL as parts that can fully compete with it. Just below those core parts (and I mean just below) are parts like U2, U3, Cronus and /UL. In fact the parts are so close to one another, you wouldn't see a clear alternative if someone just one day disallowed the use of UA. You'd most likely see a great mix of all the other cores I listed above.

Edited February 22, 2010 by TMRaven