AC4 and fA, balanced or not ?

[Niji Superfan]

Oh hey, and because I missed this:

 

In a game like AC there will always be parts with advantages over other similar parts. However these parts,. which players refer to as top tier, have weakness and disadvantages exactly like every other part in the game. Its possible to design an AC specifically to beat what is classified as a top tier AC. I'll use the example of a WG DR AC, since there are a half million of those floating around online. The WG frame has issues with missiles due to lack of flares. So capitalize on that weakness. The enemy AC uses DR as it's main source of damage, anythin with higher shell defense and similar or higher damage output at mid to close range can give it a hard time. Alternatively it can be sniped out. Granted these are crude examples, but they illustraight my point. Just because something is top tier that doesn't mean its the best part for every player or AC in the game. Isn't this the entire point of niches? Break parts which would otherwise rein supreme.

 

I think these points have been brought up already, I'm not willing to re-read the entire thread to find out though.

 

Don't talk about ACFA as if you know the game. Just don't.

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

GREAT WALL OF CHINA

 

 

limited internet use my ass

[Niji Superfan]

I do have limited internet access. That took a grand total of twenty minutes to type up. If you know how fast I type, that shouldn't even seem like much of a stretch.

 

to me ACFA is not even worth discussing because it's such a horrid game to me.

 

Ac4 however was more balanced by 1.6, but never really achieved what it needed.

the reg was the most balanced yet but when the changed the inertia it destroyed the balance.

 

Ac4 needed to have the leg caps adjusted, the forward boosters QB duration increased by a factor of 1, kraken/holliferns needed a main booster equivelant, the generators needed to be rebalanced a bit more, the EN drain on LW leg parts should have been increased while their carring caps should have been deminished alot. the pop on OB needed to be slightly stronger even on 1.6. outside of that just weapons tweaking is all that was needed but those changes I mentioned were the REAL reason AC4 was always unbalanced. they never corrected the problems which were more systemic than anything else.

 

If they did those changes alone the game would be balanced to a compedative degree.

 

VIRTUE already is the HOLOFERNES main booster equivalent. VIRTUE is to AALIYAH/M what HOLOFERNES is to AALIYAH/S.

 

LW legs were balanced fine, it was LW arms that needed a buff. Off the top of my head, here are some changes I felt 1.6 AC4 needed:

 

- POPLAR needed the missile count upped to at least 6; 4 is just too little

- PM missiles needed much better tracking

- AALIYAH gen needed a LOT more output; they got this right in FA, but it just doesn't have a purpose in AC4

- SS-G and GL needed the output cut by at least 1000 or so, perhaps with a compensatory cap boost; more on this below

- HILBERT arms needed an absolutely massive def boost, or at least a reasonable weight cut (there's just never any reason to use it over TELLUS unless you absolutely need the tracking)

- HILBERT legs needed a moderate weight cut, putting it somewhere between SS-L and SS-LL

- Conversely, SS-A needed a weight hike, and possibly even an aim precision cut

- SALAF legs needed a slight AP boost

- Lightweight arms needed a massive accuracy boost and possibly a weight cut; more on this below

- SALAF arms in particular pretty much needed a boost in every single category

- SS-LL needed a weight hike and a turning cut

- HOGIRE arms needed lower drain, and HOGIRE core needed higher defense (probably just 15 to 20 percent in both categories)

- AALIYAH core needed higher PA rec, and SALAF needed lower

- ORTEGA needed somewhat more efficient QB; as it stands, it's just a toned down AALIYAH

- The entire HOGIRE booster set needed to be more efficient, as with the earlier regs

 

I could go on, really. These are just a few quick fixes that need to be performed off the top of my head, and some of those still aren't as quick as they should be. Right off, my issue with the gens is that they're all functionally identical; the game tries to portray each generator as being specialized for a certain playstyle or build type, but really, you're just going to slap on the highest output generator your weight cap will afford. Most people will immediately go for the SS-G or MAXWELL, depending on how much KP output they're looking for. The only time you'd EVER use another gen in AC4 is when you opt for the SS-GL or HECTOR, because one of those big bad generators won't fit. Truth be told, the SS-G and GL could just as easily get an output cut so they don't absolutely dominate this stat and the game would be fine, but I think it'd make more sense to set them about 2000k shy of the AALIYAH/MAXWELL/HECTOR and just give them a tremendous cap. This would make them a different sort of generator for a different build type, which would greatly improve part variety. Ironically enough, FA actually got this right in the early regs, before it defaulted every returning AC4 part to whatever it had in the final reg of that game.

 

While all the parts listed above only need simple tweaks, there are some parts (even entire categories) that need a much more involved adjustment. Perhaps the most glaring would be the GA boosters and the LINSTANT frame. At a glance, the aim of the GA boosters is ostensibly to offer solid normal boost speed at the cost of poor QB performance, but sadly, the normal boost isn't a whole lot higher than what you'd get with the AALIYAH, which also has stellar QB stats. Similarly, the LINSTANT does have markedly higher PA than every other frame, but at the end of the day, mixing and matching JUDITH/AALIYAH/47AN parts will give you comparable PA for a dramatic increase in defense and AP (without which PA rectification is worthless). Both of these parts take a more radical approach to stat layout, and that's the bitch of rebalancing them: The easiest fix would be to even them out a little more, which would increase viability but overlap with existing parts. Personally, I think it'd be more sensible to just take the stats that these boosters intended to emphasize and increase them drastically. If you gave the LINSTANT part a 150 to 200 percent increase in rectification, their awful stats might just be offset by the ridiculous PA shielding, and it'd definitely make for some interesting builds when you mix it with the other frames. Similarly, if the GA main booster had 20k horizontal thrust, let's face it: You'd give it another try. It'd make for some interesting ground-based designs, especially quads. Truthfully, I just don't think From takes into account context when they're developing these games; it's like each full frame in AC4 has its stats allocated independently, as if they designed each set ignorant of all the others. If you look at the GA boosters by themselves, they actually look okay on paper, but they're an immediate writeoff once you've seen every other part in the game.

 

I'll just leave it at that for now, because I could probably go on for pages about all the little adjustments I think AC4 needed. Don't fucking get me started on ACFA, either.

[Vincent210]

I think GA boosters should have a ridiculously powerful back booster.

 

Ya know, because heavies are naturally going to be defensive, and that should be reflected in their standard parts.

 

However, by that logic, their main booster would be a heavier Judith, their side a heavier Holofernes, and their OB.... well idk where you'd go with that.

 

-

 

Increasing LINSTANT part(s) rectification by 200% would be fucking wild. I mean, that's just PA Rec beyond comprehension.

[█␢█]

Jumping was still a huge asset (especially to RJs) so long as you were safe to stop still for the brief vulnerability period it entails. In AC4, for whatever ridiculous reason, you can't even leave the ground without jumping. If you don't stand perfectly still for about half a second, you can't even get into the air.

Maybe I'm misreading what you said there, but you can double tap the normal boost to jump while maintaining your momentum.

[Exorcet]

- POPLAR needed the missile count upped to at least 6; 4 is just too little

- PM missiles needed much better tracking

- AALIYAH gen needed a LOT more output; they got this right in FA, but it just doesn't have a purpose in AC4

- SS-G and GL needed the output cut by at least 1000 or so, perhaps with a compensatory cap boost; more on this below

- HILBERT arms needed an absolutely massive def boost, or at least a reasonable weight cut (there's just never any reason to use it over TELLUS unless you absolutely need the tracking)

- HILBERT legs needed a moderate weight cut, putting it somewhere between SS-L and SS-LL

- Conversely, SS-A needed a weight hike, and possibly even an aim precision cut

- SALAF legs needed a slight AP boost

- Lightweight arms needed a massive accuracy boost and possibly a weight cut; more on this below

- SALAF arms in particular pretty much needed a boost in every single category

- SS-LL needed a weight hike and a turning cut

- HOGIRE arms needed lower drain, and HOGIRE core needed higher defense (probably just 15 to 20 percent in both categories)

- AALIYAH core needed higher PA rec, and SALAF needed lower

- ORTEGA needed somewhat more efficient QB; as it stands, it's just a toned down AALIYAH

- The entire HOGIRE booster set needed to be more efficient, as with the earlier regs

 

POPLAR boost, fine

 

PM's should ditch the the 1.6 "fly into floor" launch mode they got and maybe be a little less easy to throw off (or is that what you meant by tracking?). I think they had enough agility.

 

ALIYA/G with 1.4 MAXWELL's ENO would be good (honestly 1.6 MAXWELL should have the 1.4 ENO, the cut was never warranted, especially with G's ENO boost), though even as is, I think it's alright for defensive AC's, especially with the KP. I ran it on HW's and tanks (using the "useless" arm grenades no less) and it felt fine in terms of EN, though I would probably hate them now haha.

 

I think the GA gens are fine. G has pathetic KP which kind of restricts HW's from using it. It is a bit crazy on LW's though. Maybe a weight increase. GL is perfectly fine I think, nothing to do there. The cap is tempting for offensive AC's, but so is the better KP from other gens if you're concerned about [other] MG/RF, or even RF/OSAGE LW's, etc. EN wise 1.6 could use some tweaking certainly, but I think the ceiling was just about right. I'd rather not reduce the EN.

 

TELLUS can only be better than HILBERT when you're running pure EN arm weapon combos, and even then HILBERT has much more maneuverbility, and that will probably be more noticeable than the ENWS for a HW. Lighter AC's might shy away from HILBERT's weight, but that's the point. The ability to wield weapons like VEGA so easily (and then the ability to run just about anything else on your other arm) is just as much an asset as SS-A's massive def.

 

HILBERT legs should definitely not get lighter. It's the TELLUS core of legs, ultimate balanced def and all it costs you is a little bit of weight. If anything, like TELLUS core, it should probably get a cut in shell def to give SS-L a little more prominence for the "standard" HW. HILBERT was certainly an annoyance for me, not because of the EN def, but because the EN def came with nearly no sacrifice in shell def so that everyone would run it for HW's without a second thought haha.

 

SS-A is fine. It's limited in weapon options.

 

SALAF leg AP yes

 

LW arms everything yes

 

SS-LL I never really used much. It's a good part, though it suffers from negative EN def like nearly all GA parts. I don't think it needs to be brought down any. Besides the weight cap, it's not really impressive.

 

HOGIRE arms drain cut yes, though ENWS bump would also be nice. The core with that def increase would be scary. Maybe 7% at most, though it's fine as is. It has AP over AN01, which is the only other thing that might be called firmly midweight, but more importantly lacks the paper-like EN def. It's also lighter.

 

ALIYA/C is fine. SALAF core is what needs a buff. Perhaps lower weight by 150-200 and a small def increase.

 

I wanted ORTEGA to get more power (acceleration). The GA mains I have more concerns for. They need some kind of QB. ALIYA/M should have QB duration upped to 8 and boost drain cut maybe 10%. POLARIS and HOGIRE should switch QB.

 

OB speed needs to go up 20% with instant accel, also less KP drain. This should help tilt AC4 in a more offensive direction, hopefully.

[Harakiri Tiger]

I'm guessing the bump from Exorcet was to continue our debate. Anyway, I'm too busy and tired to do the questionaire I wanted to do to maybe lead you into understanding ease of use. My point is that you can't make a rifle and a grenade rifle balanced without making them the same gun. At best they may have a different looking skin. Ease of use is a natural distinguisher resulting from different types of things (especially weapons), so you really should use ease of use to balance things as it's a result of the weapons and not some arbitrary removable facet we assign them.

 

If you have the weapons statistically balanced, there's no reason to use the weapon that takes more work to learn. If the rifle is easier because when you miss it doesn't hurt you as much, then you have no strong reason to ever use the grenade rifle. Once you max out on skill you'll break even anyway, so why not at least be on the winning team while you're getting to a maxed skill scenario. If you balance them with bullets missing in mind, you make the grenade rifle too powerful in the hands of someone who has amazing timing and great aim, making the rifle useless at the high end. Assuming near perfect human-capable use, the grenade rifle will likely be able to outpace the rifle in either an open setting or a cover filled one if you balance with missing in mind.

 

It's not feasibly possible to balance a game without taking ease of use and difficulty into account as a major factor of the balance.

 

There is no feasible way to make a balanced rifle and grenade rifle that is still consistent with the general idea of rifles and grenade rifles that still utilizes the same level of ease of use for both guns. If you ignore ease of use and just make them "balanced" you simply kill one of the guns off. There is no motivating drive for taking the path of greatest resistance. Which is what you force onto one of those guns. The few people that do it are simply doing it for their ego's sake. The VAST majority of people will use the easier guns because they require less skill, especially if they break even at the top. Why should I lose my way to top and then draw even when I can win my way to the top and then draw even instead?

 

Sure we'll draw even at the end of all things, but at least I won't have to fight against my own motivations to keep playing the game unlike the guy stressing with the harder gun who will only ever break even with me once we max out.

 

Ease of use and difficulty of use are what allow niche weapons and distinct weapon types to exist. The more difficult a weapon is to use the more rewarding it should be, because that difficulty represents increased precision from the players part and increased punishement for failed precision. The reason we compete is to find out just how good we are at doing something. You want to set clear markers, not ambigious ones. You'll just end up demotivating people if they can't see themselves clearly grow.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Niji
Cleaned up my post.

[Niji Superfan]

Since Niji is bordering on this issue as it is, I'll be the first to say that I think the rifles don't need a nerf so much as other weapons need a buff. Point-blank, the simplest fix for AC4 would be to give all the rifles an ammo cut of about 25 to 30 percent, though that's not the best way to solve its problems. Some people might argue that they need a decrease in damage or increase in reload time, but the issue with rifles is that they're consistent to a fault, at least comparatively. If you nerfed their damage output (damage over time/DOT, more specifically), by any means, there'd be almost no way to balance them perfectly. You could either nerf them too hard, or not hard enough. Cutting their damage or rate of fire by just a little bit wouldn't do anything to solve the balance issue on the whole, but cutting it by a wide margin would render them useless; if you want a glimpse of that outcome, try playing with all of the rifles banned and see how much lasting appeal that has.

 

Basically, it's not so much that rifles need to get worse, everything else just needs to get better. Machineguns need to be viable and accurate at least up to the 200 range, maybe even 300 on the weaker models. Grenades need to return to being high-accuracy balls of fire at the cost of slow reload and (relatively) poor tracking, forcing you to use proper setups instead of hammering the fire button like some trigger-happy scrub. Bazookas need to be more moderate in general; less damage, less stun, higher accuracy and reload. Laser rifles are fine for the most part, but they definitely need a little more ammo, a little less usage drain and a LOT less damage scaling over time. Snipers really just need greater applicability from shorter distances so they can at least be used comfortably from mid-range, albeit no closer than that: Anyone who's played Last Raven can understand why I don't want a repeat of the RS, and seeing someone dominate you with a sniper rifle when he's close enough to rub your nipples with the barrel just looks really dumb.

 

I could go on, but hopefully, this gives you some idea of where I'm going with these part changes. All in all, rifles need to be SLIGHTLY toned down, and everything else just needs to be toned way the fuck up.

 

...Though none of these fixes would matter with the netcode in the state that it's in, of course.

[Taurus]

for me, both series were balanced by each series itself.

 

for AC4, I could get a lot more chance to hit any NEXT by zooks while I can't do the same thing when I played FA. same thing, I couldn't hit anything by my laser blade when I'd play AC4 but I could hit a lot of things by that in FA.

[Niji Superfan]

POPLAR boost, fine

 

PM's should ditch the the 1.6 "fly into floor" launch mode they got and maybe be a little less easy to throw off (or is that what you meant by tracking?). I think they had enough agility.

 

ALIYA/G with 1.4 MAXWELL's ENO would be good (honestly 1.6 MAXWELL should have the 1.4 ENO, the cut was never warranted, especially with G's ENO boost), though even as is, I think it's alright for defensive AC's, especially with the KP. I ran it on HW's and tanks (using the "useless" arm grenades no less) and it felt fine in terms of EN, though I would probably hate them now haha.

 

I think the GA gens are fine. G has pathetic KP which kind of restricts HW's from using it. It is a bit crazy on LW's though. Maybe a weight increase. GL is perfectly fine I think, nothing to do there. The cap is tempting for offensive AC's, but so is the better KP from other gens if you're concerned about [other] MG/RF, or even RF/OSAGE LW's, etc. EN wise 1.6 could use some tweaking certainly, but I think the ceiling was just about right. I'd rather not reduce the EN.

 

TELLUS can only be better than HILBERT when you're running pure EN arm weapon combos, and even then HILBERT has much more maneuverbility, and that will probably be more noticeable than the ENWS for a HW. Lighter AC's might shy away from HILBERT's weight, but that's the point. The ability to wield weapons like VEGA so easily (and then the ability to run just about anything else on your other arm) is just as much an asset as SS-A's massive def.

 

HILBERT legs should definitely not get lighter. It's the TELLUS core of legs, ultimate balanced def and all it costs you is a little bit of weight. If anything, like TELLUS core, it should probably get a cut in shell def to give SS-L a little more prominence for the "standard" HW. HILBERT was certainly an annoyance for me, not because of the EN def, but because the EN def came with nearly no sacrifice in shell def so that everyone would run it for HW's without a second thought haha.

 

SS-A is fine. It's limited in weapon options.

 

SALAF leg AP yes

 

LW arms everything yes

 

SS-LL I never really used much. It's a good part, though it suffers from negative EN def like nearly all GA parts. I don't think it needs to be brought down any. Besides the weight cap, it's not really impressive.

 

HOGIRE arms drain cut yes, though ENWS bump would also be nice. The core with that def increase would be scary. Maybe 7% at most, though it's fine as is. It has AP over AN01, which is the only other thing that might be called firmly midweight, but more importantly lacks the paper-like EN def. It's also lighter.

 

ALIYA/C is fine. SALAF core is what needs a buff. Perhaps lower weight by 150-200 and a small def increase.

 

I wanted ORTEGA to get more power (acceleration). The GA mains I have more concerns for. They need some kind of QB. ALIYA/M should have QB duration upped to 8 and boost drain cut maybe 10%. POLARIS and HOGIRE should switch QB.

 

OB speed needs to go up 20% with instant accel, also less KP drain. This should help tilt AC4 in a more offensive direction, hopefully.

And now, the why-the-fuck-am-I-even-doing-this-to-myself post!

 

- PMs have far from enough tracking. I can dodge them effortlessly without the use of flares, and their damage is so pitiful it hardly matters if you do get hit. Anyone worth his salt can dodge these, and at the highest level of the competition on the 360 side, PMs never hit.

 

- The GA gens are supreme, and you still need to get it through your head that KP is a void stat in AC4. The metagame dictates that it does absolutely nothing. The difference in KP between the SS-GL and the MAXWELL is so absolutely negligible that the recharge time is hardly any different, and even if it were, you'll never recharge your KP without turtling anyhow. Unless you can get to cover or safely pull away from your opponent (which is impossible against a faster opponent in high-level play), you'll never be able to recharge KP on command anyhow. Despite what you may think, KP has no direct impact on damage cut, whereas rectification does. I've ran stacked shell/PA designs with the SS-G gen, purely to get away with the drain of the PA molder extensions, and still had no issue with breaks. By the time your opponent has started to wear down the massive rectification and durability on a dedicated PA whore, you can be well on your way to safety if it's an option, and if it's not, you lost this matchup before it even started.

 

- The ability to use weapons like the VEGA with ease really don't matter when weapons like the VEGA are inarguably bottom-tier, because they just don't hold up in AC4's metagame. Let's run a hypothetical: You bring a VEGA against an average midweight, for which the reasonable defense cap is about 9000/6000 or 8000/7000. You need to hit with at least half of those shots to even make it worth bringing, and then what? There are no back weapons that are good enough to operate as a standalone, limiting to you to a crosswield or a half-assed missile spam approach. The crosswield is the only consistent and reliable option here, and most worthwhile crosswield setups are a whole lot of added weight and drain, seriously impeding your ability to pressure. If you don't have the speed and energy to close in on your opponent, better than he can stop you from closing in, you will never make the VEGA work. A decent opponent knows not to dive into a VEGA, simple as that. He'll draw you to exploit these setbacks, and you'll never be able to get in and make the damage count. Even in the event that you do, you'll need to make sure that the damage you do is worth the damage you take on the approach. Point-blank, VEGA is a catch 22. Your options are to run a bare-bones setup that requires absolutely immaculate play in the face of absolute predictability, or to go in armed to the teeth and lose the ability to press the offense adequately. Simply put, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. The greater issue here is that the TELLUS can still utilize some shell weapons for a lot of great weapon setups, most notably the hand missile and the lower impact rifles that aren't quite so involved (R100, 100R, 47 and 51). There is nothing stopping you from running an ER-0200 and 100R setup on the TELLUS, and it'll hit with them just fine. At the end of the day, the TELLUS will still get the job done just as well as the HILBERT will, and when the HILBERT is just a heavier version of the same arm once you have both of them hitting consistently, TELLUS is strictly superior. You make it sound as though the HILBERT allows better weapons, but ultimately, it just allows different weapons, many of which aren't as good as the tried-and-trues that support the TELLUS.

 

- If the HILBERT was a problem for you in any respect, that doesn't speak highly of the PS3's metagame, because I can't recall ever losing to anyone using the HILBERT legs on the 360 side. The SS-L has some appeal for stacking shell defense, but even that is grossly outmatched by the SS-LL for the same purpose. To put it bluntly, true heavyweights aren't viably in AC4, any more than tanks are (if not less, by virtue of the few good ways to abuse tank hangars). A mid can consistently flank a heavy, and a light can literally run circles around it. The only way to make a heavy competitively viable is to create a hybrid frame that speeds it up with lighter weight parts (SALAF core is the all-purpose way to cheese weight classes like this), and the issue here is that the HILBERT just never has enough defense when doing this. By the time you strip a HILBERT down enough to make it fast, you forfeit its defense, which gives you absolutely no reason to use it at all. The only good HILBERT frame I can think of off-hand is 47AN/47AN/TELLUS/HILBERT. You might be able to make 47AN/SALAF/SS-A/HILBERT work, but I don't think it'll do anything that a more conventional mid-heavy can't do better.

 

- ...SS-A is "limited in its weapon choices"? HOW? It has ridiculously high precision, maneuverability and recoil control (the highest combination of all three after the HILBERT, in fact), not to mention the best overall statbase of any arm part in the game. For its weight, the amount of defense, AP and even PA you get is fucking admirable. That arm was absolutely broken, period. If you could make an AC with the SS-A move fast enough to play rushdown, it was almost unstoppable just for that. This is why so many Japanese players ran head du jour with SALAF/SS-A/47AN, because it was a mathematical phenom.

 

- SS-LL has not a single downside, not a one. Its few weaknesses are so easily made up for that it's easily one of the best legs in the game. Take the head/TELLUS/TELLUS/SS-L frame. About the only thing keeping this frame from being truly flawless is that it can't do sweet SALAF aerial ballet.

 

- Okay, have you even looked at the weight difference between the HOGIRE and the 47AN? Go put it into effect. The difference in speed isn't just negligible, it isn't noticeable. For much lower shell defense than the 47AN, it has a little more AP (a measly 1500, memory serving) and an EN defense boost that could easily be made up by the TELLUS or HILBERT head. Hell, it even drains a little bit more. Ultimately, the HOGIRE is very slightly better than the 47AN in a few ways that kind of matter and drastically worse in one way that really matters. You won't notice the few advantages that the HOGIRE has in practice, but you'll really notice the disadvantage.

 

- The SALAF core is the lynchpin for just about every god-tier frame in the game. How the hell does that need a buff in any way whatsoever? If anything, it needs its rectification toned down so it doesn't overshadow the AALIYAH 99% of the time.

 

I already know any debate spurned from this is going to go nowhere, but this is a whole lot of shit that needed to be said.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Altaire

[Niji Superfan]

Wow, nothing new all week? That's disappointing.

 

I'm still waiting for Ironsoul to sack up and try to challenge me on this (or at least offer up some sort of rebuttal), because I know he'd love to think he's an authority on this game. Sadly, we all know he doesn't have the testosterone for that and even if he finds some, it's already back-ordered to his voicebox.

[Exorcet]

Wow, nothing new all week? That's disappointing.

 

Never saw the first reply.

 

And now, the why-the-fuck-am-I-even-doing-this-to-myself post!

 

- PMs have far from enough tracking. I can dodge them effortlessly without the use of flares, and their damage is so pitiful it hardly matters if you do get hit. Anyone worth his salt can dodge these, and at the highest level of the competition on the 360 side, PMs never hit.

 

- The GA gens are supreme, and you still need to get it through your head that KP is a void stat in AC4. The metagame dictates that it does absolutely nothing. The difference in KP between the SS-GL and the MAXWELL is so absolutely negligible that the recharge time is hardly any different, and even if it were, you'll never recharge your KP without turtling anyhow. Unless you can get to cover or safely pull away from your opponent (which is impossible against a faster opponent in high-level play), you'll never be able to recharge KP on command anyhow. Despite what you may think, KP has no direct impact on damage cut, whereas rectification does. I've ran stacked shell/PA designs with the SS-G gen, purely to get away with the drain of the PA molder extensions, and still had no issue with breaks. By the time your opponent has started to wear down the massive rectification and durability on a dedicated PA whore, you can be well on your way to safety if it's an option, and if it's not, you lost this matchup before it even started.

 

- The ability to use weapons like the VEGA with ease really don't matter when weapons like the VEGA are inarguably bottom-tier, because they just don't hold up in AC4's metagame. Let's run a hypothetical: You bring a VEGA against an average midweight, for which the reasonable defense cap is about 9000/6000 or 8000/7000. You need to hit with at least half of those shots to even make it worth bringing, and then what? There are no back weapons that are good enough to operate as a standalone, limiting to you to a crosswield or a half-assed missile spam approach. The crosswield is the only consistent and reliable option here, and most worthwhile crosswield setups are a whole lot of added weight and drain, seriously impeding your ability to pressure. If you don't have the speed and energy to close in on your opponent, better than he can stop you from closing in, you will never make the VEGA work. A decent opponent knows not to dive into a VEGA, simple as that. He'll draw you to exploit these setbacks, and you'll never be able to get in and make the damage count. Even in the event that you do, you'll need to make sure that the damage you do is worth the damage you take on the approach. Point-blank, VEGA is a catch 22. Your options are to run a bare-bones setup that requires absolutely immaculate play in the face of absolute predictability, or to go in armed to the teeth and lose the ability to press the offense adequately. Simply put, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. The greater issue here is that the TELLUS can still utilize some shell weapons for a lot of great weapon setups, most notably the hand missile and the lower impact rifles that aren't quite so involved (R100, 100R, 47 and 51). There is nothing stopping you from running an ER-0200 and 100R setup on the TELLUS, and it'll hit with them just fine. At the end of the day, the TELLUS will still get the job done just as well as the HILBERT will, and when the HILBERT is just a heavier version of the same arm once you have both of them hitting consistently, TELLUS is strictly superior. You make it sound as though the HILBERT allows better weapons, but ultimately, it just allows different weapons, many of which aren't as good as the tried-and-trues that support the TELLUS.

 

- If the HILBERT was a problem for you in any respect, that doesn't speak highly of the PS3's metagame, because I can't recall ever losing to anyone using the HILBERT legs on the 360 side. The SS-L has some appeal for stacking shell defense, but even that is grossly outmatched by the SS-LL for the same purpose. To put it bluntly, true heavyweights aren't viably in AC4, any more than tanks are (if not less, by virtue of the few good ways to abuse tank hangars). A mid can consistently flank a heavy, and a light can literally run circles around it. The only way to make a heavy competitively viable is to create a hybrid frame that speeds it up with lighter weight parts (SALAF core is the all-purpose way to cheese weight classes like this), and the issue here is that the HILBERT just never has enough defense when doing this. By the time you strip a HILBERT down enough to make it fast, you forfeit its defense, which gives you absolutely no reason to use it at all. The only good HILBERT frame I can think of off-hand is 47AN/47AN/TELLUS/HILBERT. You might be able to make 47AN/SALAF/SS-A/HILBERT work, but I don't think it'll do anything that a more conventional mid-heavy can't do better.

 

- ...SS-A is "limited in its weapon choices"? HOW? It has ridiculously high precision, maneuverability and recoil control (the highest combination of all three after the HILBERT, in fact), not to mention the best overall statbase of any arm part in the game. For its weight, the amount of defense, AP and even PA you get is fucking admirable. That arm was absolutely broken, period. If you could make an AC with the SS-A move fast enough to play rushdown, it was almost unstoppable just for that. This is why so many Japanese players ran head du jour with SALAF/SS-A/47AN, because it was a mathematical phenom.

 

- SS-LL has not a single downside, not a one. Its few weaknesses are so easily made up for that it's easily one of the best legs in the game. Take the head/TELLUS/TELLUS/SS-L frame. About the only thing keeping this frame from being truly flawless is that it can't do sweet SALAF aerial ballet.

 

- Okay, have you even looked at the weight difference between the HOGIRE and the 47AN? Go put it into effect. The difference in speed isn't just negligible, it isn't noticeable. For much lower shell defense than the 47AN, it has a little more AP (a measly 1500, memory serving) and an EN defense boost that could easily be made up by the TELLUS or HILBERT head. Hell, it even drains a little bit more. Ultimately, the HOGIRE is very slightly better than the 47AN in a few ways that kind of matter and drastically worse in one way that really matters. You won't notice the few advantages that the HOGIRE has in practice, but you'll really notice the disadvantage.

 

- The SALAF core is the lynchpin for just about every god-tier frame in the game. How the hell does that need a buff in any way whatsoever? If anything, it needs its rectification toned down so it doesn't overshadow the AALIYAH 99% of the time.

 

I already know any debate spurned from this is going to go nowhere, but this is a whole lot of shit that needed to be said.

 

I'll just say now that "it went like this on 360" is pretty much meaningless, because all I have to do is say "it went like this on PS3". Then again, no one any says can be proven at this point anyway.

 

-Flares are void. They are better at screening rifle rounds than aiding in missile avoidance except on tanks and maybe HW's. As far as agility goes, PM's had the same agility as OSAGE, and were only surpassed by POPLAR if I remember. The damage is indeed low without extensions, but with extensions and/or a PA buster they can whittle AP down at a decent rate. They also have the ammo be constantly fired as a support weapon while making use of the ability to save your extensions for opportune moments and work over a pretty wide range [as in distance]. OSAGE was more reliable and powerful, and but it was less versatile, especially because it was pretty much limited to close range.

 

 

-KP has no direct effect on damage true. You probably won't get much recharging done without cover, true. Neither makes KP meaningless. KP's indirect damage reduction (keeping your PA higher on average) is noticeable enough and in cover games, the one who can get out of cover faster is at an advantage. If two anti PA LW's are fighting each other, the one who keep's the others PA down more consistently is going to win, all else being equal. It's basically a race between KP recharge rate (averaged out with time behind cover of course) and the weapons' PA reduction rate. Rec will of course effect damage taken when PA is up, but it's overshadowed by frame def anyway. It obviously doesn't effect recharge rate. KP will, and indirectly your mobility. So what about the higher PA AC just taking the lead early on? He either can't because he sacrificed mobility to get the PA tunes or it only lasts so long because the KP AC just pushes through until the PA AC's PA breaks and takes the lead from there. There is the possibility that both AC's PA's go unbroken, but even then, the PA AC has to give something up to get the higher Rec. The KP AC can just go for HECTOR or MAXWELL with 50 FRS invested compared to the PA AC's 100 and be pretty well off. I was going to explain LW vs HW, but I feel lazy now.

 

-Hi lasers are anything but low tier. If you can't land the 3 VEGA shots, it's your problem, not the weapon's. The unmentioned option 3 is a tank with hangers, but that's not even necessary. The weight of 4 weapon isn't a big deal for a HW or heavy mid. And it's not really 4 weapons, but 3 since VEGA's been dropped. The VEGA AC could spend most of its time being lighter than average AC of its weight class and have a massive AP lead on top of that, from just a couple of shots alone. With the AP lead, your opponent will do the closing for you (and this is given in the first place when it's a HW vs something lighter). As far as versatility goes, HILBERT arms can run anything TELLUS can and do it better, barring mid+ range dual EN set ups perhaps. HILBERT has the maneuverability, aim, and is just a little bit behind in terms of power. I don't really see what we're comparing. Now the weight difference will count for something, but if the problem for HW's is tracking the LW aggressor which you seem to think is the issue then it's HILBERT's agility that will pay off more than anything.

 

-Generic anyone on 360 using HILBERT sucks comment. But seriously that part of the post sounds like inability to pilot heavies. Yeah lights are hard to track sometimes, but untouchable? Not even close.

 

-SS-A's limited weapons choice is due to the ENWS. In AC4, HL's are the only way to deal high instant damage reliably. Rifles rely on multiple hits, GR's can't really look up, zooks can't hit, SG's lack the range. PITONE is the only solid weapon that kind of comes close. It's a good weapon and pairs will with SS-A, but it lacks the punch of a strategic VEGA strike from behind cover.

 

-SS-LL has no EN def, literally SALAF like, and lower AP+shell def than the true HW's. You're faster, but more fragile. Less load too.

 

-Again, weight isn't speed so much as it's accel, and the weight is only one downside. AN has terrible EN def, and unlike SS-LL, you can't throw on TELLUS core to make up for it. The AP is also lower. It has its uses but I certainly wouldn't call it hands down better than HOGIRE. On any lighter AC, I would just avoid AN entirely. It's just an invitation to be shredded by EN weapons.

[Exorcet]

So out of bordem I decided to throw some numbers into the ring. I pit CR-HOGIRE vs AN01 and KP vs PA (HOG core used for all KP and PA tests)

 

This isn't any kind of be all end all test, but it's better than relying on purely anecdotal evidence (which is what everyone was doing).

 

CR-HOG vs 47AN01

 

AC4 reg 1.4 PS3 split screen

 

 

non SC range - 400

SC range - 648

 

AC initial AP ~ 38000 (+ for HOG, - for AN)

frame > TELLUS | Core | TELLUS | HOGIRE

 

AP > taken from end of game numbers, not results screen [former cuts off damage at instant of 1st AC destruction]

HOG - AN

 

CANO

5400 - 0

 

CANO ~5000 AP advantage (601JC test gone wrong, range was probably between 400 and 550)

0315 - 0

 

R100R

0 - 1500

 

49ANSC

0 - 1700

 

601JC

Missiles can ram missiles without killing selves, so one AC was taking 2 missiles, while the other only 1.

 

 

 

 

 

SS-GL

Max KP vs Min KP

R100R

0663 - 0

 

CANO

0 - 0 (max AP difference ~ 50, random fluxtuation between 0 and 1 with spikes up to 50 AP)

 

SC

0 - 0 (max AP difference ~ 1000, non KP AC just about to PA break)

 

 

 

 

MAXWELL vs SS-GL

MW vs GL

R100R

2500 - 0 (1AP/shot dam rate + for GL, .2AP/shot dam rate + for MW)

 

SC

2700 - 0 (Max AP difference ~ 5000, GL PA breaks, MAXWELL near full)

 

 

 

Core + Leg PA tunes vs no KP tunes

PAR vs base GL

R100R

2500 - 0

 

CANO

0 - 0 (max AP difference ~500)

 

SC

2700 - 0 (max AP difference ~ 2000, PAR AC most resistent when PA low)

 

MAXWELL vs SS-GL with Leg+Core

MW vs GL-PA

71 - 0 (PA initially winning)

 

SS-GL with 50 KP vs SS-GL with Leg+Core

KP vs PA

0 - 1600

Edited June 16, 2011 by Exorcet

[Fukei]

-Flares are void. They are better at screening rifle rounds than aiding in missile avoidance except on tanks and maybe HW's...

 

ie, you have one-dimensional views on how flares work. If you don't have to focus on missiles with movement, you can do other things with your movement. Things like dodging guns more effectively and preventing getting led into shots while dodging the missiles, or playing in a more aggressive way to deal more damage with reliable weapons as the enemy is wasting DPS using missiles.

 

I'll even use a tournament video as an example:

I was obviously joking around and taking the EC-O300 hits on purpose, but you get the point. (Although in this case, I still could've handily annihilated him with Pitone, but we're still talking about Pen and his perma-flight which has the grace of a flying elephant with a bullseye painted on it here.)

 

Also, you seem to have forgotten the existence of players like exo-gen who prove that pressuring enough with missiles makes dodging them reliably "void." Even Strifer using one missile pack had ways of reliably damaging others because he timed his shots properly, had proper angles and used OB with ones like Osage and Poplar efficiently. Flares helped against him, period. If your logic is based purely off of numbers that are thaaat far deep down, then I think it's pretty bad to be using them as an argument.

 

This is part of the reason why I think your logic with Tiered Answer in fA is so horrible, because you downplay flares against proper missile usage to incredible extents.

 

-KP has no direct effect on damage true. You probably won't get much recharging done without cover, true. Neither makes KP meaningless. KP's indirect damage reduction (keeping your PA higher on average) is noticeable enough and in cover games, the one who can get out of cover faster is at an advantage. If two anti PA LW's are fighting each other, the one who keep's the others PA down more consistently is going to win, all else being equal. It's basically a race between KP recharge rate (averaged out with time behind cover of course) and the weapons' PA reduction rate. Rec will of course effect damage taken when PA is up, but it's overshadowed by frame def anyway. It obviously doesn't effect recharge rate. KP will, and indirectly your mobility. So what about the higher PA AC just taking the lead early on? He either can't because he sacrificed mobility to get the PA tunes or it only lasts so long because the KP AC just pushes through until the PA AC's PA breaks and takes the lead from there. There is the possibility that both AC's PA's go unbroken, but even then, the PA AC has to give something up to get the higher Rec. The KP AC can just go for HECTOR or MAXWELL with 50 FRS invested compared to the PA AC's 100 and be pretty well off. I was going to explain LW vs HW, but I feel lazy now.

 

For your KP argument, I really have nothing else to say at this point besides you grossly overestimating how important recharge rates are again. Higher rectification is better in the long run, because if something is going to break your PA, it's gonna break it down hard regardless of your KP. Just like with Energy, there comes a point when more blood is more important than how fast your heart can pump it. KP happens to be in the need for more blood the majority of the time, unless you're extremely OB reliant. It's that simple, I don't get how you went so indepth on something so irrelevent.

 

The weight of 4 weapon isn't a big deal for a HW or heavy mid.

 

You're correct on the latter, but you're wrong on the former. This is why most player's heavyweights are bad. If you ignore speed and load up a billion things on a HW frame, then what Altair said is absolutely true, you WILL have lightweights running circles around you. I mean properly built LWs though, probably not you and your Polaris main on everything ever silliness.

 

The speed does make a difference and it's why heavy-midweights are tip top tier. It's also why things like Albireo are a hundred times more viable than Kiritumi despite lower defense for a tank of all things, aside from the obviously super important turning speed.

 

The rest of it in those paragraphs I skimmed through revolves around Vega or whatever, to which all I have to say about that is that it's pure cheese. It will work on certain things, but it will get it's colon maxed by others. In my own philosophy, I would consider that as being close or something equivelent to bottom-tier. Similar to Kojima weapons.

 

-Generic anyone on 360 using HILBERT sucks comment. But seriously that part of the post sounds like inability to pilot heavies. Yeah lights are hard to track sometimes, but untouchable? Not even close.

 

No, it actually sounds more like the opposite, the ability for the opposing player to pilot lightweights. I most likely understand this better than anyone because I dealt with it even back when I was in my prime and a hundredfold better than I am now, and I'd like to assume that you don't have the audacity to say I can't play heavyweights properly as your argument.

 

Pure heavyweights pretty much always have had immense lacking in turning speed in 4th gen. Trying to offset that with underweighting, while being one of the more viable ways to use them, leads to losing what other advantages a heavyweight actually has.

 

-SS-A's limited weapons choice is due to the ENWS. In AC4, HL's are the only way to deal high instant damage reliably. Rifles rely on multiple hits, GR's can't really look up, zooks can't hit, SG's lack the range. PITONE is the only solid weapon that kind of comes close. It's a good weapon and pairs will with SS-A, but it lacks the punch of a strategic VEGA strike from behind cover.

 

So your logic is that because SS-A can't hide behind buildings with cheesy Vega, it's weapon choice is limited. Even though Sirius exists for ACs that need it. You also still don't seem to understand the kinds of design types grenade cannons work reliably against (You know, like people who sit behind buildings with mass laser weaponry) and how effective they can be on proper designs with adequate support from other guns.

 

I don't even have the capacity to explain how ridiculous I think that paragraph from you was, I spent probably half the time on this post thinking of how many ways you were wrong with that and I still don't know how to effectively put it into words.

 

-SS-LL has no EN def, literally SALAF like, and lower AP+shell def than the true HW's. You're faster, but more fragile. Less load too.

 

Here, let me fix that one line for you: "You're much faster, but slightly more fragile."

 

SS-LL has low energy defense, which is mitigated through other frame parts, which then opens the window to having a massive defense / speed ratio through intelligent part synergy. It's top tier, but you'll probably once again just argue with Vega. I don't think even that would work, because I can take things a step further by saying if we're talking regulations 1.60, that we can include the two AP buffs the legs got which also gives huge AP / speed ratio for AP leads on top of all else.

 

And what are you even doing mentioning load, were you that desperate for points to argue with? I think my staple is proof enough that plenty of weight can be put on those legs, I can't imagine putting any more on it without going into the "why would you even be using these weapons" territory.

 

I normally wouldn't care about posting any of this, but it's really in the interest of brushing up on my own knowledge and remembering things.

[Barilzar]

Outside of blades, and the few unusable parts like Gats, ACFA is incredibly balanced. If you couldn't beat something, it was because you sucked.

[Mom]

SS-A

[Exorcet]

ie, you have one-dimensional views on how flares work. If you don't have to focus on missiles with movement, you can do other things with your movement. Things like dodging guns more effectively and preventing getting led into shots while dodging the missiles, or playing in a more aggressive way to deal more damage with reliable weapons as the enemy is wasting DPS using missiles.

 

I'll even use a tournament video as an example:

I was obviously joking around and taking the EC-O300 hits on purpose, but you get the point. (Although in this case, I still could've handily annihilated him with Pitone, but we're still talking about Pen and his perma-flight which has the grace of a flying elephant with a bullseye painted on it here.)

 

Also, you seem to have forgotten the existence of players like exo-gen who prove that pressuring enough with missiles makes dodging them reliably "void." Even Strifer using one missile pack had ways of reliably damaging others because he timed his shots properly, had proper angles and used OB with ones like Osage and Poplar efficiently. Flares helped against him, period. If your logic is based purely off of numbers that are thaaat far deep down, then I think it's pretty bad to be using them as an argument.

 

Alright, saying that flares are void is pretty bold. But I still don't think they are really necessary except when used on AC's like those I pointed out. They're certainly not a missile shield, and I don't think the video you posted shows much. Between start up time and reload time, you've got enough of window to land missiles on a flare user even if they have a full stock. If the guy you're shooting at has flares, he can take away your ability to fire off a missile salvo whenever you want I suppose, but as soon as he does use them, you have a window to launch your own missiles and have them all go after the other AC. It's pretty easy to plan ahead for this, and since most missiles outlast the extensions you've got a good bit of ammo to use as flare bait if you feel like it.

 

I don't know, this is kind of how I remember pretty much every match where I've had to deal with flares. Just don't fire with every lock and you're OK.

 

Now once case where flares might suck is vs DEARBORN as you're probably going to want to dump it quick, it doesn't hold much, and you want lots of repeated hits to either break PA or crack open an AC without PA, but I can't really remember have my DEARBORN AC's being shut down by flares.

 

 

 

For your KP argument, I really have nothing else to say at this point besides you grossly overestimating how important recharge rates are again. Higher rectification is better in the long run, because if something is going to break your PA, it's gonna break it down hard regardless of your KP. Just like with Energy, there comes a point when more blood is more important than how fast your heart can pump it. KP happens to be in the need for more blood the majority of the time, unless you're extremely OB reliant. It's that simple, I don't get how you went so indepth on something so irrelevent.

I don't think PA break is a given. But I guess this is something that could be tested. You can get KP pretty easily with MAXWELL which is a good gen, and in 1.6 you have HECTOR too. FRS wise it will cost you 50 at the most while getting PA buffed by a similar amount takes more tuning and picking frame parts based on PA makes no sense.

 

 

You're correct on the latter, but you're wrong on the former. This is why most player's heavyweights are bad. If you ignore speed and load up a billion things on a HW frame, then what Altair said is absolutely true, you WILL have lightweights running circles around you. I mean properly built LWs though, probably not you and your Polaris main on everything ever silliness.

Four weapons does not mean ignoring weight, as the weight could be anywhere between two handguns+ two VERMILLION or two heavy zooks with two SIRIUS. Some popular weapons like 051 and OSAGE weigh nothing and leave you plenty of room through on a couple other weapons, plus you have things like VEGA which you can hold onto as long as need and drop for a bit of speed boost when it becomes important.

 

Also I use VIRTUE quite a bit. I prefer POLARIS on things that have rapid fire PA breaking weapons (ie MG's) because the goal is to stay on and break PA. and POLARIS is pretty good at flanking. Back when I was a bit better I had a lot of less trouble using my LW AC's because I could effectively track and didn't fumble with QB. But ignoring that Exogen had no problem flying around with POLARIS and if I recall Geno used it quite a bit as well. POLARIS is a "proper LW" booster easy. And if I had a mantra with boosters it would probably be "VIRTUE when you can". POLARIS is just more user friendly, especially for me now.

 

 

The speed does make a difference and it's why heavy-midweights are tip top tier. It's also why things like Albireo are a hundred times more viable than Kiritumi despite lower defense for a tank of all things, aside from the obviously super important turning speed.

I honestly remember KIRITUMI being better as it has more powerful boost to offset the weight, but I don't remember clearly. I think I used ALBIREO early on then switched to KIRITUMI.

 

The rest of it in those paragraphs I skimmed through revolves around Vega or whatever, to which all I have to say about that is that it's pure cheese. It will work on certain things, but it will get it's colon maxed by others. In my own philosophy, I would consider that as being close or something equivelent to bottom-tier. Similar to Kojima weapons.

There is nothing cheese about VEGA. Maybe an AC that relies only on VEGA, but VEGA as an AP lead weapon with three (or even just two) other weapons to switch to isn't cheese, and it hits pretty hard even against high EN def frames, though obviously the effectiveness is reduced. You can do the same thing with CANO, trading less risk for less reward and drop it for a nice 2000 weight decrease. The high lasers are really the best at this and I think that going for a maxed out HLR is an alternative to going for SS-A's def + whatever solid weapon.

 

 

 

No, it actually sounds more like the opposite, the ability for the opposing player to pilot lightweights. I most likely understand this better than anyone because I dealt with it even back when I was in my prime and a hundredfold better than I am now, and I'd like to assume that you don't have the audacity to say I can't play heavyweights properly as your argument.

You wouldn't be the only one with experience. You probably have more experience in a heavy vs a LW than I do, but I've done it a ton of times too.

 

Pure heavyweights pretty much always have had immense lacking in turning speed in 4th gen. Trying to offset that with underweighting, while being one of the more viable ways to use them, leads to losing what other advantages a heavyweight actually has.

Yes, the turning is what makes it tough, but tricks like using a QB to get around the QT refresh are super helpful in mitigating that turning penalty. Also, QT's are pretty easy on EN compared to QB's, and the LW is going to have to QB a lot more than the HW most likely

 

I'll give you that I certainly have a harder time piloting the heavy than the LW in this situation, but I don't see a good HW pilot being totally destroyed by a good lightweight pilot regularly.

 

 

 

So your logic is that because SS-A can't hide behind buildings with cheesy Vega, it's weapon choice is limited. Even though Sirius exists for ACs that need it. You also still don't seem to understand the kinds of design types grenade cannons work reliably against (You know, like people who sit behind buildings with mass laser weaponry) and how effective they can be on proper designs with adequate support from other guns.

VEGA is 1000 weight lighter than SIRIUS, has better melee, benefits from arm melee, and is an arm weapon so it can look up/down. For a HW, VEGA has some very nice advantages over SIRIUS and I really don't think that there is a solid equivalent to the high laser weapons in AC4, particularly the arm weapons. PITONE is the closest, but it's more of a reliable "chipper" (it chips a whole lot at a time) and it's a lot drainer.

 

But the whole point with the limited weapon choice is that you give up that arm mounted heavy hitter. You can go with SIRIUS like you said, but then that goes back to the weight issue you mentioned before.

 

 

Here, let me fix that one line for you: "You're much faster, but slightly more fragile."

 

SS-LL has low energy defense, which is mitigated through other frame parts, which then opens the window to having a massive defense / speed ratio through intelligent part synergy. It's top tier, but you'll probably once again just argue with Vega. I don't think even that would work, because I can take things a step further by saying if we're talking regulations 1.60, that we can include the two AP buffs the legs got which also gives huge AP / speed ratio for AP leads on top of all else.

To be honest I don't even remember the def ratings anymore so I don't know how tilted to one side SS-LL is on def. I probably was underrating it though, I've unfairly underrated that part for a long time.

 

On 1.6 I think it was 1000 AP flat for every leg which means LW's benefit more.

 

And what are you even doing mentioning load, were you that desperate for points to argue with? I think my staple is proof enough that plenty of weight can be put on those legs, I can't imagine putting any more on it without going into the "why would you even be using these weapons" territory.

I don't remember what my mindset was in writing that post, at least for that part with SS-LL, but yeah SS-LL has a fair amount of load as your staple shows.

 

I normally wouldn't care about posting any of this, but it's really in the interest of brushing up on my own knowledge and remembering things.

Best way to do that is probably clobbering me online more. I'm still up for it by the way, I've just been semi busy.

[Fukei]

I'm bored because nob and Niji won't get on TL2, so I'll reply again. Like I already said in chat though, I'm gonna avoid the things that were completely destroyed by semantics.

 

Alright, saying that flares are void is pretty bold. But I still don't think they are really necessary except when used on AC's like those I pointed out. They're certainly not a missile shield, and I don't think the video you posted shows much. Between start up time and reload time, you've got enough of window to land missiles on a flare user even if they have a full stock. If the guy you're shooting at has flares, he can take away your ability to fire off a missile salvo whenever you want I suppose, but as soon as he does use them, you have a window to launch your own missiles and have them all go after the other AC. It's pretty easy to plan ahead for this, and since most missiles outlast the extensions you've got a good bit of ammo to use as flare bait if you feel like it.

 

I don't know, this is kind of how I remember pretty much every match where I've had to deal with flares. Just don't fire with every lock and you're OK.

 

Now once case where flares might suck is vs DEARBORN as you're probably going to want to dump it quick, it doesn't hold much, and you want lots of repeated hits to either break PA or crack open an AC without PA, but I can't really remember have my DEARBORN AC's being shut down by flares.

 

The point of the video is that I could've nullified a large portion of his Musselshell spam and focused on dodging his laser cannon and making more aggressive movements with the Pitone out on top of it, if I wanted to. It still is a pretty poor example, but at least it's a funny one.

 

Anyway, you're right, flares aren't magical missile shields. That's not really anywhere close to what I was saying, though. Their main purpose is to slice a missile user's DPS and overall firepower, which they inarguably do. They will also give someone trying to time missiles while keeping proper angles a much harder time in general, even more so if the person using the flares is actually paying attention and prepares for flare countering tactics.

 

I'm skipping a little bit, because as said in chat, it's a headache of semantics that exploded.

 

There is nothing cheese about VEGA. Maybe an AC that relies only on VEGA, but VEGA as an AP lead weapon with three (or even just two) other weapons to switch to isn't cheese, and it hits pretty hard even against high EN def frames, though obviously the effectiveness is reduced. You can do the same thing with CANO, trading less risk for less reward and drop it for a nice 2000 weight decrease. The high lasers are really the best at this and I think that going for a maxed out HLR is an alternative to going for SS-A's def + whatever solid weapon.

 

That's precisely what I meant though. relying on it. It kind of sounds like you're relying on it in your design philosophy a bit too much when you're questioning the tier of an arm part that's good at literally everything else, entirely on whether or not it can wield a hi laser. That's crazy. They aren't that important in the metagame. Like I said, Sirius is a great alternative and no, Vega having better handling in it's prefered set up doesn't discount Sirius in this one.

 

I'm also not saying it's cheese because of high energy defense designs, I'm saying it's cheese because good players are going to realize what you're doing from the get-go and not boost straight into the whopping six shots you have. There's as much responsibility in dodging the shots as there is for the person landing them, and they can be dodged. The shot velocity is extremely high for it's damage, but in general, it's really not that high.

 

I'm probably still using the term 'cheese' a bit incorrectly in a certain way, I should probably be saying that it's plain bad design strategy instead.

 

But the whole point with the limited weapon choice is that you give up that arm mounted heavy hitter. You can go with SIRIUS like you said, but then that goes back to the weight issue you mentioned before.

 

I think you're assuming a bit too much on the types of designs I'm even talking about in terms of SS-A's worth. I'm not talking about SS-A on heavy brick Hilbert or SS-L legs, I'm talking about ones that I think are actually competitively viable, such as SS-LL, or quadrupeds, or putting them with lightweight frame parts. So nah, that doesn't go back to the weight issue I mentioned earlier. Those are completely seperate issues.

 

On 1.6 I think it was 1000 AP flat for every leg which means LW's benefit more.

 

Nope. From 1.4 to 1.6, SS-LL did recieve a bigger buff than the other legs, and because of the nature of the AP, defense / speed ratio that those legs already provide, they get the bigger benefit by a landslide. It's naturally worth way more because that AP also has a large amount of defense protecting it, while it should go without saying that they don't lose anything in terms of AP lead tactics against other types.

[Exorcet]

The point of the video is that I could've nullified a large portion of his Musselshell spam and focused on dodging his laser cannon and making more aggressive movements with the Pitone out on top of it, if I wanted to. It still is a pretty poor example, but at least it's a funny one.

 

Anyway, you're right, flares aren't magical missile shields. That's not really anywhere close to what I was saying, though. Their main purpose is to slice a missile user's DPS and overall firepower, which they inarguably do. They will also give someone trying to time missiles while keeping proper angles a much harder time in general, even more so if the person using the flares is actually paying attention and prepares for flare countering tactics.

Well I guess I can agree with that, though my experience has always been that if there is a loss vs flare users it's mostly from the "first: flare salvo. You want to get them to deploy the flares then go on business as usual. If you keep up the pressure, they're probably going to be on the flares as soon as they reload, which makes it easy to know when to hold back.

 

But I guess it's kind of a case of player vs player; who is going to out do the other?

 

 

That's precisely what I meant though. relying on it. It kind of sounds like you're relying on it in your design philosophy a bit too much when you're questioning the tier of an arm part that's good at literally everything else, entirely on whether or not it can wield a hi laser. That's crazy. They aren't that important in the metagame. Like I said, Sirius is a great alternative and no, Vega having better handling in it's prefered set up doesn't discount Sirius in this one.

I would say that I'm relying on it, but maybe I'm touting personal preference a bit too much.

 

Maybe it's best going back to what I said a billion years ago, that maximizing HL damage can be as valueable as SS-A's def.

 

I'm also not saying it's cheese because of high energy defense designs, I'm saying it's cheese because good players are going to realize what you're doing from the get-go and not boost straight into the whopping six shots you have. There's as much responsibility in dodging the shots as there is for the person landing them, and they can be dodged. The shot velocity is extremely high for it's damage, but in general, it's really not that high.

So is VEGA viable or not? I can't agree that bringing it along as an AP lead weapon is a bad design strategy. It's not a fool proof design strategy, but the weapon isn't negated simply because the other person sees it. It's strong enough to the point where you can probably afford to take a few hits just to make sure land a hit of your own depending on what you're being hit with, but accurate enough that you don't need to do that.

 

One of the reason why I like the HL's so much is because like PITONE, they take advantage of AC4's lock system. You can technically track something almost anywhere on your screen, and because of relatievly high shot velocities, all you need to garuntee a hit is a red lock and a QB cool down on your target. Even against fast opponents, you're not so much trying to track them as much as you just need to cross your sights over them. It makes them a lot easier to use than most other weapons.

 

I think you're assuming a bit too much on the types of designs I'm even talking about in terms of SS-A's worth. I'm not talking about SS-A on heavy brick Hilbert or SS-L legs, I'm talking about ones that I think are actually competitively viable, such as SS-LL, or quadrupeds, or putting them with lightweight frame parts. So nah, that doesn't go back to the weight issue I mentioned earlier. Those are completely seperate issues.

Well weight is an issue for all leg types. My mid feels twice as fast with SIRIUS dropped, and the gain gets bigger for LW's and RJ's (RJ's also need to think about turning). For quads yeah, it's less of an issue. They're probably the easiest to load stuff on to.

 

And when you're trying to be mobile, the restrictions on cannon line of sight can be pretty annoying when the fight breaks out of the horizontal plane.

 

I'm not saying that HILBERT trumps SS-A. HILBERT def is pretty bad for what it weighs if I remember. SS-A has what you would expect for a 3000 whatever weight arm and then some. Weapons handling is more or less even, SS-A has a bit more maneuverability while HILBERT has aim. Maybe what I say with ALIYA vs SALAF core applies here, SS-A in general, HILBERT for specialization; but maybe I'm giving ENWS too much credit because of personal preference.

 

 

 

Nope. From 1.4 to 1.6, SS-LL did recieve a bigger buff than the other legs, and because of the nature of the AP, defense / speed ratio that those legs already provide, they get the bigger benefit by a landslide. It's naturally worth way more because that AP also has a large amount of defense protecting it, while it should go without saying that they don't lose anything in terms of AP lead tactics against other types.

Well if they actually a got a bigger buff, then OK. Though on the whole AP relating to def thing: ideally it takes the same kill power to kill everything. HW's live more by absorbing damage while avoiding a little, LW's by avoiding damage while absorbing a little. If that it's true that it takes about the same amount of firepower to kill a good LW as it does a good HW, you can look at AP by itself as durability. The 1000 (though I guess SS-LL got more whcih would mean what I'm saying does not apply - but I just wanted to clarify) AP increase for all legs is proportionally larger for LW legs. It would make them more durable compared to pre 1.6 LW's than 1.6 HW's are to pre 1.6 HW's. Basically, a $5 raise on a $10 sallary is bigger than a $5 raise on a $15 salary. But this is a bit simplified and what not of course.

 

But yeah, planes.