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Dark Souls 3


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#241 Mom

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 08:58 AM

You still had luck builds with bbs and dex build with uchi, but yeah there were about 5 or so dominant types of loadouts in Des, and they all balanced each other out pretty nicely. In the grand scheme of things, the overall diversity of the game was shit, but the balance between them was ok. Keep in mind that Des was never patched for balance as well.

I've never had experience with Dks2 pvp after the first big patch hit, but I do know before that patch that it was easily the most abusable game with the nastiest abusable weapons and magic. My favorite example being that resonant weapon Syan's Halberd, which was basically a long ass spear with the hitbox width of longsword horizontal swing. One hit with it, and you're guaranteed for a 3 hit combo-- the likes of which does 1800 damage. Let's also not forget the great resonant soul spell and the power stance glitch, among many others.

I think Dark Souls 2 has the exact opposite problem of Dark Souls 3 when it comes to PvP. Mechanically, it's hot garbage. Rolls just don't make sense, plus the game feels super stiff and slow. What it did have going for it is the ability to play around with builds and create cool ideas and setups. Dark Souls 3 is easily the best mechanical game in the series. PvP becomes more of like a fighting game, where knowing your range and mixups are infinitely important. Knowing the entirety of your weapon's moveset is important as well, and there's a whole nother game when it comes to baiting out parries. Weapon diversity in the game is the best in the series, and they all balance each other out pretty nicely. What isn't good at all in Dks3 is build diversity-- everything is a quality build.

Level Design in Dks2 is hit or miss-- for the most part miss. I did like the layout and aesthetic of areas like fofg and the pirate ship area, but everything else is pretty bland and short. Let's not talk about world design and how each level is connected. Dark Souls 3 falters a little bit in this way in that it has more of a sprawling world instead of a cleverly intertwined one like Dark Souls 1. However I still do like the ascent up the castle and the grand archives, as I mentioned in a previous post.

Demon's Souls still has a lot of the best level designs and aesthetics for me. I'm still a sucker for 1-1, 2-1, 2-2, 3-1, 4-1, and 5-2.

#242 YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 01:01 PM

yeah uh my experience with ds2 is the complete opposite of nob's and closer to what owen said but i didnt play the DLCs which i heard were a big gamechanger so there's that

the bosses were easily the most uninspired and that was definitely not just cuz there was a bunch its cuz they were literally all the same giant man fight, the map design was lazy compared even to a non-souls game, the music was boring, the mechanics especially in pvp were nonsense and there was some stuff that might be the most broken stuff out of any of the games (GRS, chaos blade, shit like that)

ds2 only did one thing better than the others and thats the summonable NPCs, aside from that it was a weak game basically on any metric

one thing tho: the fact that quality in ds3 is so dominant fucks up the replayability pretty bad. Everyone wants to think they want a build that can use every weapon but in reality that shit sucks its just plain more fun in the long run to have to build differently for different weapons

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#243 Nescient

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 01:35 PM

View PostDad, on 07 August 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

Knowing the entirety of your weapon's moveset is important as well, and there's a whole nother game when it comes to baiting out parries. Weapon diversity in the game is the best in the series, and they all balance each other out pretty nicely. What isn't good at all in Dks3 is build diversity-- everything is a quality build.

CCS 2HR1s beg to differ. IMO very few weapons require knowing the whole move set, the top tier duel meta weapons all revolve around one move. Straight swords have the most viable move set but 1HR1s are still the best solution to most scenarios.

From a PvE only standpoint you're right.



I actually liked the slower pace of 2, it felt more realistic. Hitting things wasn't as big an issue, 3 feels like FA to me in the way its pvp meta functions...


Started 2 somewhere between DLC 1 and 2, can confirm it was a broken clusterfuck. It FUCKING STUNS me that people complain about 3s invasion mechanics, considering estus was disabled for invaders. Went after pvp for a month or two, drowned in the blood of my enemies once i accepted the running r1 katana combo. It was a very boring and simple game.

Mechanically ds3 is far worse in that regard. 2 at least had those swag as fuck back-step moves, dual wielding and glorious hilt parry. se Honestly I think they botched 3, releasing it too early or chose to cash in with what they had knowing it'd be enough. No way the original plan was this gimpy as fuck offhand "system"...

View PostTANK TOP LEGEND, on 07 August 2016 - 01:01 PM, said:

thing tho: the fact that quality in ds3 is so dominant fucks up the replayability pretty bad. Everyone wants to think they want a build that can use every weapon but in reality that shit sucks its just plain more fun in the long run to have to build differently for different weapons

yeah at 120 theres little point to anything else. Too many RPS match ups and too few single stat options... I count two weapons with viable str/dex scaling and buffable elemental damage...

Low SL is better ime, vit builds are a thing below SL60... YES VIT BUILDS...

Edited by Nescient, 07 August 2016 - 01:37 PM.


#244 YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 02:34 PM

good points ya

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View PostBakuhatsu Pengin, on 15 December 2016 - 04:53 AM, said:

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#245 Rachis

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 04:12 PM

i tried for a month to do something that wasn't quality and was unable to do so. my main sparty dude, who isn't even a meta character, still runs 40/40. its kinda dumb. i've always liked refined, but i don't like being shoehorned into something either. the fact that my str build was the only other thing i could even bother to finish and it still wasn't that great to me says a lot about the creativity allowed in this game. tons of builds get put up on youtube that are lots of the same stats with just different equipment. the only "original" stuff is hey lets see what happens if i put 70 in a primary stat. not really effective.
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#246 Bakuhatsu Pengin

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 04:34 PM

dks3 universal 3 hit combos are nothing compared to pushlock or 2HR1 infinites in des where second chance was a necessity, and you had to toggle glitch in dks1 to get out of stunlock combos. most of the balance issues that you guys are familiar with (GRS, syans, etc) got fixed after the first big patch and it made the game way better (also, at least magic and poise work, unlike in dks3 :tut:).

i say the mechanics are better because rolls arent as abusable as they are in dks1 or dks3 where the i-frames and stamina usage are ridiculous. you can actually punish someone for making a shitty roll in dks2, unlike dks3 where you can literally roll at the other player 20 times and then R1 them. dks2 is definitely slower paced though in comparison to the other games which i can see why someone mite not like that

dks3 also has backstab startup which kinda irritates me, since it makes it harder to punish rolls or attacks or parry attempts. tbh id rather deal with bullshit backstabs instead of having it virtually removed as an option

and the reason why i hate dks3 level design so much is that literally everything is a castle. castle with green bg, castle with blue bg, castle with red bg, castle in a swamp, etc. nothing tops dks1 for level design, but id honestly consider dks2 levels to be on par in terms of diversity

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#247 Mom

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 02:14 AM

Parry has become the new backstab of Dks3, and it's very easy to parry someone who only uses twinsword's rolling R1s. I also like how that guy is at lvl 120 and only chose to put videos against people who had around 1k hp. That shit's wild easy to embarrass no matter the weapon. Gothard's rolling r1 a great move no doubt, but rolling R1s in general suck in Dks3 compared to the other Souls games because of parry-baiting. The fact that hornet ring can one-shot you off a parry most of the time adds to that. I much prefer playing the parry game than dealing with backstabs that only exaggerated the latency issues the games have.

In Dark Souls 2, I made a run to bloodbro rank 3 in only a couple days, and my only strat was running at people with a 1h drakesword dashing attack, then predicting their roll away, so prematurely running after I attacked towards their roll, and punished literally every time with a backstab. Even on my screen at times, I would teleport into their bodies from quite the distance. Experiences like this were what I dealt with mostly in Dark Souls 2, where every build centered around basically one core strategy, and you followed that same strat through every one of your fights. Dark Souls 3 is the first game where I've felt as if mixing up your attack timings and using different attacks plays an important role-- it's part of what makes the entire halberd class super hard to deal with. (Straight swords being an exception to the use all your moveset rule.)

But I was entertained enough with Dark Souls 2's build variety that I wanted to do multiple playthroughs with different characters that concentrated on different stats. In Dark Souls 3, I made a quality character, and one that centered around demon fist. I tried my hardest to make a unique character after that for another playthrough, but never could find one. In that sense, Dark Souls 2 has more replay-ability than Dark Souls 3 for me.


I can buy the everything is a castle thing.

Poise is a dumb and highly abusable system and you should feel dumb. With poise, everybody is going to reach for the same breakpoints anyways, and I much prefer weapons be balanced instead via their unique properties and weapon arts instead of relying on a universal system to counteract fast-swinging weapons.

Edited by Dad, 08 August 2016 - 02:38 AM.


#248 Bakuhatsu Pengin

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 06:53 AM

you shit on a bunch of panic rolling scrubs to hit rank 3 gj youre just as good as the person in the video i posted. i bet you can parry those rolling R1s with 90% success too, especially when they are only used to punish your attempts and not vice versa.

i guess poise is more dumb than getting stuffed by estoc or carthus because either your weapon isnt fast enough or doesnt have enough range and you literally cant do anything except attempt to parry bait or hyper armor trade with a slower weapon (and get punished for doing something far riskier than estoc R1). you can honestly just wait for the opponent to attempt to parry or attack and punish them for 2 free R1s, or just poke them straight up because of range and speed and youll stuff whatever comes out anyways as long as its not a psychic parry. having to use a high risk high reward option to counter a low risk moderate reward option is far more dumb than poise i guarantee it. other options include using a shield, even though you cant counterattack after blocking a string because your weapon is either too slow, too short, or costs too much stamina (unless you shield poke with estoc lol), or you can roll and reset the situation to neutral, where you were at a disadvantage to begin with because you dont have the range speed to match. or, you can use carthus or estoc and force the opponent to deal with the same exact thing

parry baiting has been around since parry has existed, dks3 jsut made it more of a necessity because of nerfed backstabs and lackluster combat composed of either R1 or roll (or the very skillful tactic of wait->R1). its hardly something even worth talking about, and if you have such a huge parry boner then just play dks2 where the monastery scimitar has 0F parry startup.

breakpoints arent even close to dumb and i dont even know if you know how poise works. at their worst, the poise breakpoints become a build standard (just like stat softcaps), and at their best, it allows for infinitely more build diversity and a more complex metagame. poise is a resource that diminishes with every hit you take and only regenerates if your poise is busted or you wait for a long period of time. you can't tank a rolling attack (unless you use great weapon hyper armor) and you can only take like 2 hits any other time (3 if its like a fuckin 1H dagger). this greatly expands the viability of weapons slower or larger than a longsword while still letting you play around the mechanic with faster weapons and some finesse. poise also costs weight, which is already a scarce enough resource depending on your build. fast weapons should not have the luxury of being able to shut down every attack thats slower and poise guarantees that doesnt happen every time

maybe you can elaborate on how poise is any more abusable than dks3 estoc and i might be more inclined to feel dumb. dks3 estoc is the perfect demonstration of why poise is necessary.

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#249 Mom

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 09:26 AM

The experience proves the talk; Dark Souls 3 has had the best weapon diversity considering its total amount of weapons compared to every to any other Souls game.


From my experience at Pontiff, Estoc has been the least of my worries. Plenty of weapons will out-trade it, and plenty of weapons have armor properties in their swings.


You're right, I punished scrubs who panic-rolled away, and I did it all the way to rank 3, and boy did it feel good. We're not talking about tip-top tournamnet play here, but we are talking dudes who have way more prepared builds than guys at lvl 120 with only 1k hp (lol.)


Poise breakpoints didn't do shit to diversify Dark Souls 1. Literally everybody ran around as a giant-dad. Dark Souls 2 it doesn't matter cause souls memory, so everybody is full havel with 10 buffs.

Edited by Dad, 08 August 2016 - 09:34 AM.


#250 Nescient

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 02:20 PM

knight (121)
39-45

30

40

15

30

15

9

25

7


warmth/iron flesh


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Posted 08 August 2016 - 05:34 PM

>everyone is giant dad

giant dad was a cheese build that only worked pre-DWGR nerf, and after the nerf it vanished off the face of the earth. you really have no idea of what dks2 was like post patch, so i don't even know why youre trying to dispute the issue. you probably had no idea that daggers were high tier in dks2, despite poise apparently not doing shit for diversity.

dagger + shield became a part of the meta because of flynns ring builds (lower equip load = higher AR), which couldnt do jack shit against the dagger+shield counterattack speed and backstab/riposte ability. if poise didnt exist at all, it would probably be the single most dominant weapon in the game because you can approach your range with the shield, tank a hit, and stuff any extra attacks that are slower than your dagger (which is basically everything, especially since flynns ring builds ran fast weapons and dagger+shield countered them hard.)

estoc in dks3 is virtually the same issue, where you can punish anything slower and stuff or whiff punish it because of no poise, or just play around counters that the opponent must preempt, such as parry or attack move armor, both of which are punishable if avoided. estoc has the range and speed to play completely reactively, unless youre fighting against the other top top tier weapons (carthus, estoc, gargoyle, washing pole, gothards)

if anything was abusable in dks2, it was the absurd counter damage of katanas, not poise. it allowed you to make favorable trades despite whatever poise the opponent had. if someone wanted to poise tank through your attack, they got counterhit by an uchi with a 150 rating or an estoc with 120. poise became an issue when you had someone with both high counterhit and poise, which was mitigated by poise itself. without poise, 150 counterhit into a combo AND getting your attack stuffed would be outright broken, but at least you could trade counterhits and attempt to combo back through the use of your own poise. in most scenarios, the aggressor won because they attacked the opponents poise first, unless they didnt manage their poise correctly

you havent actually mentioned why poise is abusable other than mention an outdated and overrated build. youve only mentioned how rolls are counterable in dks2, and im surprised you havent mention dks2 tracking, because i can agree that the game probably had too much of that. dks3 also has insane tracking though, but i guess its mitigated by unpunishable roll spam



>best weapon diversity

lets check

imo competitively viable weapons

des has: anything str, bbs, mirdan

dks has: any katana, most straight swords, estoc, most polearms, bkga, a handful of GS and UGS

dks2 has: any katana, most straight swords, most daggers, estoc, bident, santiers, old whip, fists, and a handful of halberds, great hammers/axes/swords, and curved swords

dks3 has: any katana, most straight swords, any rapier, carthus, gargoyle, gotthard, oni uchi, a handful of polearms and greatswords

i wouldnt mind if someone disputed this, but i feel its decently accurate. i can agree here that dks3 has a fair amount of diversity given the total amount of weapon choices, but it does not have the best weapon diversity. i should add though that dks2 had a lot of time to patch and had 3 DLCs to add weapons, so maybe dks3 will have a future.

however, the point i am trying to make is that dks3 does not have the fundamental game mechanics to push its diversity anywhere near the levels of dks2, no matter how many weapons get added, and the key reason is the lack of poise and the corresponding metagame it helps develop. stat scaling and rebalancing away from quality would definitely help the overall diversity, but it can only do so much to prevent weapons like estoc or carthus from being fast enough to dominate every other weapon thats slower, simply because poise does not exist. nerf their speed, and some other rapier or weapon class takes over as the weapon with the best speed/range ratio to abuse the fact that there is no poise. adding armor to more attacks does nothing unless the attacks are sufficiently fast enough to actually work, which creates the same exact environment that poise did.

attacks that have hyper armor in dks3:

straight sword WA - startup 10-20 frames, ends on 60th
axe WA lol
halberd startup 20-36 end 62-96
gs startup 10-50 end 52-92
ugs 0-40 to 50-122
cestus parry starts up in 10 frames and has 70 total frames

seeing as you have to attack at least 10 frames before the opponent to get any form of hyper armor (unless UGS lol), and the attacks are all slower than an estoc, i can definitely see how it makes estoc less abusable (sarcasm). if you play any of the top tier weapons, all you have to do is wait and punish, and you have the advantage of poking first because the opponent has to know ahead of time to use their hyper armor or parry. when you have to counter a single button press by making educated guesses, it sure makes the game exciting and fair~

lets also talk about how useful the VIT stat is in dks3 when armor only matters for defense. that alone couldve caused poise to increase diversity and balance by offering some form of tradeoffs, but instead its never worth adding any real investment to it, and the points invested are usually because youve already hit every softcap and breakpoint by 120



you could just say you didnt like dks2 and you liked dks3 because of whatever experience you had and i cant really argue against how you felt about stuff, other than the fact that you didnt fully experience dks2. my experience with dks2 has been much better than with dks3 for the reasons ive listed earlier, although i dont disagree with its flaws and criticisms

but your experiences dont PROVE shit and "you should feel dumb" for even trying to mention they do, especially when you havent even experienced dks2 post patch and frequently mention things that were formerly abusable and no longer are in order to support your ridiculous claim. i dont even care about poise that much, but if you say i should feel dumb and then claim its the most abusable mechanic since welfare checks, then youd better give a damn good reason, or any actual reason at all for that matter.

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#252 YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 06:15 PM

i feel like u guys r arguing two diff things tbh

unless owen has exp with post patch ds2 pvp; i know i dont so i didnt argue that part too much

well that and my problems with ds2 run way deeper than the pvp since thats not a huge part of it to me (see des)

i can say a few things tho

View PostBakuhatsu Pengin, on 08 August 2016 - 05:34 PM, said:

estoc in dks3

honestly estoc stopped being god tier after like the 1.07 regulation or something i forget which, but yeah it stopped being borderline broken to just being v good (i'd still count it as top tier but i generally didn't think 'o fuck' when someone has one) ill give u that its a coward weapon tho lol

twinswords still fucked me up and ccs and pole are still bullshit tho forever chaos blade is in that same tier imo

which gargoyle the spear? the spear is p easily best spear in the game idk if i'd put it in same tier as pole tho

the halberds are all more obnoxious to me

View PostBakuhatsu Pengin, on 08 August 2016 - 05:34 PM, said:

des has: anything str, bbs, mirdan

dks3 has: any katana, most straight swords, any rapier, carthus, gargoyle, gotthard, oni uchi, a handful of polearms and greatswords

des: nah man its literally like just 5 weapons lol: bbs mh gaxe uchi dbs, i'd say claymore is right there tho

the game's balance was shit pvp-wise but im fairly sure that was intentional, i felt like there was a clear vision about how and what from wanted the game to be and imo they p much got it right

dks3: when u say viable r u talking like stuff ppl can use with a little bit of learning or the top tier stuff only? i feel like that sorta matters before i can add/subtract anything from ur list it looks mostly accurate tho

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View PostBakuhatsu Pengin, on 15 December 2016 - 04:53 AM, said:

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#253 Mom

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 06:25 PM

You're damn right I never experienced Dks2 post-patch, any sane man would've given up on the game before the patch even hit. I can't argue jack shit about balance Dks2 has after its many DLCs and patches, but if we are to be comparing apples to apples, then we must compare early dks2 to early dks3-- the likes of which makes dks3 a way less abusable game, and one with a more nuanced pvp. It's like we're comparing Ultra Street Fighter 4 with its many balance changes to Street Fighter 5 as it first came out-- comparing perfectly diverse top 8s at Evo to top8s with tons of Nash and Chun action.

Speaking of the two street fighter games, I feel it's a perfect segway to the poise debate. My argument is moreso along the lines of why I don't think poise is a good game mechanic to begin with. People shouldn't have to rely on a universal mechanic to balance the game for them. Ideally, a game should give each weapon unique characteristics that would allow them to compete well against each other. Having different classes of weapons with unique weapon arts and characteristics is a far more dynamic system than having to rely on poise to counter fast weapons. I rather see a street fighter game where each character has their own unique v-trigger than see a street fighter game where every character has a focus attack.

Again, I can't speak for post-patch dks2 (or hell even post patch dks1), but my experiences pre-patch is that people would set their poise accordingly to whatever the meta at the time was. If the strongest weapons in the game were 2h greatswords, then they'd set their poise to 56, if they wanted to take 2 2handed spear hits, then they would set their poise to 60. In doing so, you might be providing a little balance to the weapons in the game, but you're still confirming to a standard, which doesn't help contribute to diversity.

Unless the meta for Dark Souls 3 has changed drastically in the month or so that I haven't played it, then Estoc and curved swords are far from the beasts that everybody thought they were when the game first came out. At least I'm glad somebody recognizes the Gargoyle Spear as a good weapon.


All of this still doesn't take away from my initial argument, in which I find the mechanics of Dks2 to be garbage. Animations are stiff and sluggish. Hitboxes are all over the place. Weapon tracking is completely insane (yes, thank you for reminding me), backstabs are bullshit because they only exaggerate the latency issues every game has, and having to play around a poise system is dumb. Dark Souls 3 by comparison is fluid, each weapon class feels rather unique (though I wish each weapon within their respective class was just as unique), no more teleportation city as a result from backstabbing, and for the most part, weapon hitboxes are true to what their models are.

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 06:34 PM

View PostDad, on 08 August 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

Unless the meta for Dark Souls 3 has changed drastically in the month or so that I haven't played it, then Estoc and curved swords are far from the beasts that everybody thought they were when the game first came out.

actually there's was a point i forgot to make which is for ds3 in particular, and it might just be because i started paying more attention to the internet about it but man ppl wildly overreact to weapons and then a week later they r figured out and its w/e again

best example was onikiri after it got the big buff for the first wk after it was broken and then after it was like maybe 3rd best katana in the class lol and far inferior to pole and chaos

not that that has anything to do with ur debate but its just something i wanted to say lol

fk the internet is what im rly saying

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View PostBakuhatsu Pengin, on 15 December 2016 - 04:53 AM, said:

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 06:58 PM

i would disagree that a universal mechanic should not be a solution to a game's balance. in fact, its nigh impossible for a game to exist without them, and nigh impossible to balance a game without them. added variation still abides by all the rules of universal mechanics, but its varied in more nuanced ways that each interact with one another.

street fighter has universal mechanics such as block, throw, jump, walk, hp, corner, and attack. each iteration after SF2 has had some form of unique universal mechanic, such as chains and ISMs in alpha, parries in 3, FA in 4, and V meter in 5. and, in each game, these universal mechanics influenced the balance of the game to a point where it mattered, and even then some characters had better FAs or better options after parry, and etc. also, dont kid yourself into thinking that the characters were not universal: USF4 everyone had some form of jab or light confirm into a special attack, everyone has a cancel, and SFV has universal damage values for every light, medium, and hard normal across the entire cast. SSF4 gave you the choice between two different ultras, and yet more than half the cast had a standard universal ultra that was far more optimal in every situation than the other. very few characters had the luxury of making a meaningful choice. even though these mechanics are UNIVERSAL, they themselves are still varied between each character, and they still have a huge bearing on the game's balance.

so i dont really see why having poise is an issue if it contributes to the balance of a game if the only reason is because it is something that is universal and something that can be standardized. standardization just leads to an established metagame, which leads itself to being countered because more people put more effort into defeating the most amount of options most of the time.

ironically, moving on to apples and apples, i agree that its fair to only compare dks2 and dks3 early on, and in that regard, GRS and syans and other things were far more busted than early estoc or carthus, but again i think that missing a mechanic such as poise will limit the growth of dks3 in the long run in comparison.

ya the list i posted is stuff that you could realistically win with without being at any sort of huge disadvantage. its not limited to ultra top tier only

i browsed a few of those "high skill" tournamets with 32 man invitationals and money on the line that were pretty recent and the only 4 weapons i saw were washing pole, carthus, estoc+shield, and gargoyle flame spear. i did see some guy run a lothric sword who made it far, but he died. they seemed like reasonable players fwiw, and i feel that its a decent indication of the actual weapon diversity because it was from like 2-3 different recent tournaments, but again, fk the internet

Edited by Bakuhatsu Pengin, 08 August 2016 - 08:06 PM.

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#256 YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 09:51 PM

View PostBakuhatsu Pengin, on 08 August 2016 - 06:58 PM, said:

ya the list i posted is stuff that you could realistically win with without being at any sort of huge disadvantage. its not limited to ultra top tier only

i browsed a few of those "high skill" tournamets with 32 man invitationals and money on the line that were pretty recent and the only 4 weapons i saw were washing pole, carthus, estoc+shield, and gargoyle flame spear. i did see some guy run a lothric sword who made it far, but he died. they seemed like reasonable players fwiw, and i feel that its a decent indication of the actual weapon diversity because it was from like 2-3 different recent tournaments, but again, fk the internet

okay so if ur list is basically "stuff I would be worried about in a fight" than ds3 list is actually enormous, its prolly like over half the weapons in the game

great hammers, most great axes, and most axes would be off the list otherwise everything is at least scary enough to be scary unless u play like a bitch (see below)

the actual top tier tho ya it narrows down a lot its bscly: pole chaos ccs estoc tryhard bk halberd gundyr and apparently gargoyle spear (i decided to click a praise the sun pvp video just now and he mentions the gargoyle spear as being a meta weapon so that must be something i somehow missed or didnt put 2 and 2 together on cuz I know its the spear i saw the most of EASILY but i didn't know it was top tier)

halberds, straight swords, katanas, thrusting swords in general are all safe for playing like a hoe, other stuff can do it but those are generally the easiest to do it with

in ds3 the best weapons are all ones where if you play like a coward and structure ur stats for melee only you are at an advantage over everything else

with stat structure its all the same since everyone runs the same quality build (unless ur stupid like me) anyhow which just leaves the playstyle

bscly if you wait a lot and stick to rolling thru attacks and counter hitting ur gonna win most often especially since u can avoid most parry baits by simply understanding u dont have to come in or remembering to kick or running r2

pre-patch ds2 had the same problem tbh

tbh tho even in a 'high skill' tournament i think i'd do okay with my moonlight girl altho i'd probably streamline her before taking her but i feel like that at least is a positive mark with regards to "viability" and other stupid shit that is barely worth talking about in a souls game anyways lol

i have no idea where im trying to go with this i guess im just throwing out info to go with what u were saying

w/e fk the internet shit is garbage motherfuckers never fail to remind me why i hate AC fans (and most other fans of things at this point)

i just noticed i left off darksword n shit on that list of weapons but i did say straight sword at least so u can fill in the blanks i leave stuff out ur used to that by now im sure

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View PostBakuhatsu Pengin, on 15 December 2016 - 04:53 AM, said:

TALL AND TAN AND YUNG AND LOVELY


#257 Mom

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 11:38 PM

Yeah moonlight has armor properties on its 2h moveset and has high damage output as well. Too bad you gotta run shit build for it.

I would say Gargoyle Spear is a great weapon, but I don't think it does too well against halberds-- rather, it might have a slight range advantage, but the halberds for the most part track better and do more damage, not to mention way easier to roll catch somebody with them since you can mix your attacks up. Gargoyle spear is sorta one-trick pony, with an occasional R2 thrown in to mixup your timing. Against anything else though, I feel very confident using gargoyle spear.


Speaking of bitch playstyle, there was this one dude on gamefaqs who made a topic with video talking about why he thought UGS class sucked and Washing Pole was top dog (this was before patch). He was semi-right, but his video showed about a 10 minute long fight between him and an UGS user, where he would literally just keep distance and wait for the perfect moment to dash attack, we're talking about one attack every 1-2 minutes here. I think this spawned another conversation between me and somebody else (maybe it as Steve?) about how the UGS user wasn't playing it right, and that a real UGS user would wait for an opportune moment for a trade. If both players just stood around for 10+ minutes never attacking each other.. well you get the idea. Point is, you can lame it out in this game if you want to play like a complete bitch, but for the most part during normal play, the weapon variety is strong.

#258 Nescient

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Posted 09 August 2016 - 09:32 AM

View PostBakuhatsu Pengin, on 08 August 2016 - 05:34 PM, said:

dks3 does not have the fundamental game mechanics to push its diversity anywhere near the levels of dks2, no matter how many weapons get added, and the key reason is the lack of poise and the corresponding metagame it helps develop.


mmm this... The DLCs would have to be offensively good.



View PostBakuhatsu Pengin, on 08 August 2016 - 05:34 PM, said:

lets also talk about how useful the VIT stat is in dks3 when armor only matters for defense. that alone couldve caused poise to increase diversity and balance by offering some form of tradeoffs, but instead its never worth adding any real investment to it, and the points invested are usually because youve already hit every softcap and breakpoint by 120

is it better or worse that vit is highly abusable at low SL?



View PostDad, on 08 August 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

Speaking of the two street fighter games, I feel it's a perfect segway to the poise debate. My argument is moreso along the lines of why I don't think poise is a good game mechanic to begin with. People shouldn't have to rely on a universal mechanic to balance the game for them. Ideally, a game should give each weapon unique characteristics that would allow them to compete well against each other. Having different classes of weapons with unique weapon arts and characteristics is a far more dynamic system than having to rely on poise to counter fast weapons. I rather see a street fighter game where each character has their own unique v-trigger than see a street fighter game where every character has a focus attack.

from what I've gathered poise and heavy armor were nerfed hard. By the time I was PvPing poise was not worth. Katana worked fine with no fucks given (mostly 0 poise armor) and generally performed better as a lightweight <30% fast roll build. Even with other weapons (straight sword, caestus, and a few great sword setups) poise wasn't worth the benefits offered by flynns and <30% stamina regen combined with high ADP fast-rolls.

I've found great swords infinitely more useable with 3's HA system, as an estoc/straight sword counter in particular. I want old-school poise but I guess you're at least half right. Good players can usually get around HA and the poise 3 has does jack fucking shit to counter the STATS (I'm looking at you, endurance...) that it damn well fucking should. At the very least it should break the roll-catch chain one or two hits earlier. "Setup poise" is a good idea but also poorly implemented.

cool tech: https://www.youtube....h?v=z6L6HwmZ15k

too bad its useless vs ccd/wp/gfs/estoc..............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................



































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Edited by Nescient, 09 August 2016 - 09:24 AM.


#259 Bakuhatsu Pengin

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Posted 09 August 2016 - 02:26 PM

u gotta be in their grill for that shield block bs to work tho huh

still pretty neat i guess


View PostDad, on 08 August 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

it's a perfect segway

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#260 YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR

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Posted 09 August 2016 - 04:19 PM

A Perfect Segway is a p good username huh

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View PostBakuhatsu Pengin, on 15 December 2016 - 04:53 AM, said:

TALL AND TAN AND YUNG AND LOVELY






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