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>everyone is giant dad

 

giant dad was a cheese build that only worked pre-DWGR nerf, and after the nerf it vanished off the face of the earth. you really have no idea of what dks2 was like post patch, so i don't even know why youre trying to dispute the issue. you probably had no idea that daggers were high tier in dks2, despite poise apparently not doing shit for diversity.

 

dagger + shield became a part of the meta because of flynns ring builds (lower equip load = higher AR), which couldnt do jack shit against the dagger+shield counterattack speed and backstab/riposte ability. if poise didnt exist at all, it would probably be the single most dominant weapon in the game because you can approach your range with the shield, tank a hit, and stuff any extra attacks that are slower than your dagger (which is basically everything, especially since flynns ring builds ran fast weapons and dagger+shield countered them hard.)

 

estoc in dks3 is virtually the same issue, where you can punish anything slower and stuff or whiff punish it because of no poise, or just play around counters that the opponent must preempt, such as parry or attack move armor, both of which are punishable if avoided. estoc has the range and speed to play completely reactively, unless youre fighting against the other top top tier weapons (carthus, estoc, gargoyle, washing pole, gothards)

 

if anything was abusable in dks2, it was the absurd counter damage of katanas, not poise. it allowed you to make favorable trades despite whatever poise the opponent had. if someone wanted to poise tank through your attack, they got counterhit by an uchi with a 150 rating or an estoc with 120. poise became an issue when you had someone with both high counterhit and poise, which was mitigated by poise itself. without poise, 150 counterhit into a combo AND getting your attack stuffed would be outright broken, but at least you could trade counterhits and attempt to combo back through the use of your own poise. in most scenarios, the aggressor won because they attacked the opponents poise first, unless they didnt manage their poise correctly

 

you havent actually mentioned why poise is abusable other than mention an outdated and overrated build. youve only mentioned how rolls are counterable in dks2, and im surprised you havent mention dks2 tracking, because i can agree that the game probably had too much of that. dks3 also has insane tracking though, but i guess its mitigated by unpunishable roll spam

 

 

 

>best weapon diversity

 

lets check

 

imo competitively viable weapons

 

des has: anything str, bbs, mirdan

 

dks has: any katana, most straight swords, estoc, most polearms, bkga, a handful of GS and UGS

 

dks2 has: any katana, most straight swords, most daggers, estoc, bident, santiers, old whip, fists, and a handful of halberds, great hammers/axes/swords, and curved swords

 

dks3 has: any katana, most straight swords, any rapier, carthus, gargoyle, gotthard, oni uchi, a handful of polearms and greatswords

 

i wouldnt mind if someone disputed this, but i feel its decently accurate. i can agree here that dks3 has a fair amount of diversity given the total amount of weapon choices, but it does not have the best weapon diversity. i should add though that dks2 had a lot of time to patch and had 3 DLCs to add weapons, so maybe dks3 will have a future.

 

however, the point i am trying to make is that dks3 does not have the fundamental game mechanics to push its diversity anywhere near the levels of dks2, no matter how many weapons get added, and the key reason is the lack of poise and the corresponding metagame it helps develop. stat scaling and rebalancing away from quality would definitely help the overall diversity, but it can only do so much to prevent weapons like estoc or carthus from being fast enough to dominate every other weapon thats slower, simply because poise does not exist. nerf their speed, and some other rapier or weapon class takes over as the weapon with the best speed/range ratio to abuse the fact that there is no poise. adding armor to more attacks does nothing unless the attacks are sufficiently fast enough to actually work, which creates the same exact environment that poise did.

 

attacks that have hyper armor in dks3:

 

straight sword WA - startup 10-20 frames, ends on 60th

axe WA lol

halberd startup 20-36 end 62-96

gs startup 10-50 end 52-92

ugs 0-40 to 50-122

cestus parry starts up in 10 frames and has 70 total frames

 

seeing as you have to attack at least 10 frames before the opponent to get any form of hyper armor (unless UGS lol), and the attacks are all slower than an estoc, i can definitely see how it makes estoc less abusable (sarcasm). if you play any of the top tier weapons, all you have to do is wait and punish, and you have the advantage of poking first because the opponent has to know ahead of time to use their hyper armor or parry. when you have to counter a single button press by making educated guesses, it sure makes the game exciting and fair~

 

lets also talk about how useful the VIT stat is in dks3 when armor only matters for defense. that alone couldve caused poise to increase diversity and balance by offering some form of tradeoffs, but instead its never worth adding any real investment to it, and the points invested are usually because youve already hit every softcap and breakpoint by 120

 

 

 

you could just say you didnt like dks2 and you liked dks3 because of whatever experience you had and i cant really argue against how you felt about stuff, other than the fact that you didnt fully experience dks2. my experience with dks2 has been much better than with dks3 for the reasons ive listed earlier, although i dont disagree with its flaws and criticisms

 

but your experiences dont PROVE shit and "you should feel dumb" for even trying to mention they do, especially when you havent even experienced dks2 post patch and frequently mention things that were formerly abusable and no longer are in order to support your ridiculous claim. i dont even care about poise that much, but if you say i should feel dumb and then claim its the most abusable mechanic since welfare checks, then youd better give a damn good reason, or any actual reason at all for that matter.

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i feel like u guys r arguing two diff things tbh

 

unless owen has exp with post patch ds2 pvp; i know i dont so i didnt argue that part too much

 

well that and my problems with ds2 run way deeper than the pvp since thats not a huge part of it to me (see des)

 

i can say a few things tho

 

estoc in dks3

 

honestly estoc stopped being god tier after like the 1.07 regulation or something i forget which, but yeah it stopped being borderline broken to just being v good (i'd still count it as top tier but i generally didn't think 'o fuck' when someone has one) ill give u that its a coward weapon tho lol

 

twinswords still fucked me up and ccs and pole are still bullshit tho forever chaos blade is in that same tier imo

 

which gargoyle the spear? the spear is p easily best spear in the game idk if i'd put it in same tier as pole tho

 

the halberds are all more obnoxious to me

 

des has: anything str, bbs, mirdan

 

dks3 has: any katana, most straight swords, any rapier, carthus, gargoyle, gotthard, oni uchi, a handful of polearms and greatswords

 

des: nah man its literally like just 5 weapons lol: bbs mh gaxe uchi dbs, i'd say claymore is right there tho

 

the game's balance was shit pvp-wise but im fairly sure that was intentional, i felt like there was a clear vision about how and what from wanted the game to be and imo they p much got it right

 

dks3: when u say viable r u talking like stuff ppl can use with a little bit of learning or the top tier stuff only? i feel like that sorta matters before i can add/subtract anything from ur list it looks mostly accurate tho

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You're damn right I never experienced Dks2 post-patch, any sane man would've given up on the game before the patch even hit. I can't argue jack shit about balance Dks2 has after its many DLCs and patches, but if we are to be comparing apples to apples, then we must compare early dks2 to early dks3-- the likes of which makes dks3 a way less abusable game, and one with a more nuanced pvp. It's like we're comparing Ultra Street Fighter 4 with its many balance changes to Street Fighter 5 as it first came out-- comparing perfectly diverse top 8s at Evo to top8s with tons of Nash and Chun action.

 

Speaking of the two street fighter games, I feel it's a perfect segway to the poise debate. My argument is moreso along the lines of why I don't think poise is a good game mechanic to begin with. People shouldn't have to rely on a universal mechanic to balance the game for them. Ideally, a game should give each weapon unique characteristics that would allow them to compete well against each other. Having different classes of weapons with unique weapon arts and characteristics is a far more dynamic system than having to rely on poise to counter fast weapons. I rather see a street fighter game where each character has their own unique v-trigger than see a street fighter game where every character has a focus attack.

 

Again, I can't speak for post-patch dks2 (or hell even post patch dks1), but my experiences pre-patch is that people would set their poise accordingly to whatever the meta at the time was. If the strongest weapons in the game were 2h greatswords, then they'd set their poise to 56, if they wanted to take 2 2handed spear hits, then they would set their poise to 60. In doing so, you might be providing a little balance to the weapons in the game, but you're still confirming to a standard, which doesn't help contribute to diversity.

 

Unless the meta for Dark Souls 3 has changed drastically in the month or so that I haven't played it, then Estoc and curved swords are far from the beasts that everybody thought they were when the game first came out. At least I'm glad somebody recognizes the Gargoyle Spear as a good weapon.

 

 

All of this still doesn't take away from my initial argument, in which I find the mechanics of Dks2 to be garbage. Animations are stiff and sluggish. Hitboxes are all over the place. Weapon tracking is completely insane (yes, thank you for reminding me), backstabs are bullshit because they only exaggerate the latency issues every game has, and having to play around a poise system is dumb. Dark Souls 3 by comparison is fluid, each weapon class feels rather unique (though I wish each weapon within their respective class was just as unique), no more teleportation city as a result from backstabbing, and for the most part, weapon hitboxes are true to what their models are.

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Unless the meta for Dark Souls 3 has changed drastically in the month or so that I haven't played it, then Estoc and curved swords are far from the beasts that everybody thought they were when the game first came out.

 

actually there's was a point i forgot to make which is for ds3 in particular, and it might just be because i started paying more attention to the internet about it but man ppl wildly overreact to weapons and then a week later they r figured out and its w/e again

 

best example was onikiri after it got the big buff for the first wk after it was broken and then after it was like maybe 3rd best katana in the class lol and far inferior to pole and chaos

 

not that that has anything to do with ur debate but its just something i wanted to say lol

 

fk the internet is what im rly saying

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i would disagree that a universal mechanic should not be a solution to a game's balance. in fact, its nigh impossible for a game to exist without them, and nigh impossible to balance a game without them. added variation still abides by all the rules of universal mechanics, but its varied in more nuanced ways that each interact with one another.

 

street fighter has universal mechanics such as block, throw, jump, walk, hp, corner, and attack. each iteration after SF2 has had some form of unique universal mechanic, such as chains and ISMs in alpha, parries in 3, FA in 4, and V meter in 5. and, in each game, these universal mechanics influenced the balance of the game to a point where it mattered, and even then some characters had better FAs or better options after parry, and etc. also, dont kid yourself into thinking that the characters were not universal: USF4 everyone had some form of jab or light confirm into a special attack, everyone has a cancel, and SFV has universal damage values for every light, medium, and hard normal across the entire cast. SSF4 gave you the choice between two different ultras, and yet more than half the cast had a standard universal ultra that was far more optimal in every situation than the other. very few characters had the luxury of making a meaningful choice. even though these mechanics are UNIVERSAL, they themselves are still varied between each character, and they still have a huge bearing on the game's balance.

 

so i dont really see why having poise is an issue if it contributes to the balance of a game if the only reason is because it is something that is universal and something that can be standardized. standardization just leads to an established metagame, which leads itself to being countered because more people put more effort into defeating the most amount of options most of the time.

 

ironically, moving on to apples and apples, i agree that its fair to only compare dks2 and dks3 early on, and in that regard, GRS and syans and other things were far more busted than early estoc or carthus, but again i think that missing a mechanic such as poise will limit the growth of dks3 in the long run in comparison.

 

ya the list i posted is stuff that you could realistically win with without being at any sort of huge disadvantage. its not limited to ultra top tier only

 

i browsed a few of those "high skill" tournamets with 32 man invitationals and money on the line that were pretty recent and the only 4 weapons i saw were washing pole, carthus, estoc+shield, and gargoyle flame spear. i did see some guy run a lothric sword who made it far, but he died. they seemed like reasonable players fwiw, and i feel that its a decent indication of the actual weapon diversity because it was from like 2-3 different recent tournaments, but again, fk the internet

Edited by Bakuhatsu Pengin
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ya the list i posted is stuff that you could realistically win with without being at any sort of huge disadvantage. its not limited to ultra top tier only

 

i browsed a few of those "high skill" tournamets with 32 man invitationals and money on the line that were pretty recent and the only 4 weapons i saw were washing pole, carthus, estoc+shield, and gargoyle flame spear. i did see some guy run a lothric sword who made it far, but he died. they seemed like reasonable players fwiw, and i feel that its a decent indication of the actual weapon diversity because it was from like 2-3 different recent tournaments, but again, fk the internet

 

okay so if ur list is basically "stuff I would be worried about in a fight" than ds3 list is actually enormous, its prolly like over half the weapons in the game

 

great hammers, most great axes, and most axes would be off the list otherwise everything is at least scary enough to be scary unless u play like a bitch (see below)

 

the actual top tier tho ya it narrows down a lot its bscly: pole chaos ccs estoc tryhard bk halberd gundyr and apparently gargoyle spear (i decided to click a praise the sun pvp video just now and he mentions the gargoyle spear as being a meta weapon so that must be something i somehow missed or didnt put 2 and 2 together on cuz I know its the spear i saw the most of EASILY but i didn't know it was top tier)

 

halberds, straight swords, katanas, thrusting swords in general are all safe for playing like a hoe, other stuff can do it but those are generally the easiest to do it with

 

in ds3 the best weapons are all ones where if you play like a coward and structure ur stats for melee only you are at an advantage over everything else

 

with stat structure its all the same since everyone runs the same quality build (unless ur stupid like me) anyhow which just leaves the playstyle

 

bscly if you wait a lot and stick to rolling thru attacks and counter hitting ur gonna win most often especially since u can avoid most parry baits by simply understanding u dont have to come in or remembering to kick or running r2

 

pre-patch ds2 had the same problem tbh

 

tbh tho even in a 'high skill' tournament i think i'd do okay with my moonlight girl altho i'd probably streamline her before taking her but i feel like that at least is a positive mark with regards to "viability" and other stupid shit that is barely worth talking about in a souls game anyways lol

 

i have no idea where im trying to go with this i guess im just throwing out info to go with what u were saying

 

w/e fk the internet shit is garbage motherfuckers never fail to remind me why i hate AC fans (and most other fans of things at this point)

 

i just noticed i left off darksword n shit on that list of weapons but i did say straight sword at least so u can fill in the blanks i leave stuff out ur used to that by now im sure

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Yeah moonlight has armor properties on its 2h moveset and has high damage output as well. Too bad you gotta run shit build for it.

 

I would say Gargoyle Spear is a great weapon, but I don't think it does too well against halberds-- rather, it might have a slight range advantage, but the halberds for the most part track better and do more damage, not to mention way easier to roll catch somebody with them since you can mix your attacks up. Gargoyle spear is sorta one-trick pony, with an occasional R2 thrown in to mixup your timing. Against anything else though, I feel very confident using gargoyle spear.

 

 

Speaking of bitch playstyle, there was this one dude on gamefaqs who made a topic with video talking about why he thought UGS class sucked and Washing Pole was top dog (this was before patch). He was semi-right, but his video showed about a 10 minute long fight between him and an UGS user, where he would literally just keep distance and wait for the perfect moment to dash attack, we're talking about one attack every 1-2 minutes here. I think this spawned another conversation between me and somebody else (maybe it as Steve?) about how the UGS user wasn't playing it right, and that a real UGS user would wait for an opportune moment for a trade. If both players just stood around for 10+ minutes never attacking each other.. well you get the idea. Point is, you can lame it out in this game if you want to play like a complete bitch, but for the most part during normal play, the weapon variety is strong.

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dks3 does not have the fundamental game mechanics to push its diversity anywhere near the levels of dks2, no matter how many weapons get added, and the key reason is the lack of poise and the corresponding metagame it helps develop.

 

 

mmm this... The DLCs would have to be offensively good.

 

 

 

lets also talk about how useful the VIT stat is in dks3 when armor only matters for defense. that alone couldve caused poise to increase diversity and balance by offering some form of tradeoffs, but instead its never worth adding any real investment to it, and the points invested are usually because youve already hit every softcap and breakpoint by 120

 

is it better or worse that vit is highly abusable at low SL?

 

 

 

Speaking of the two street fighter games, I feel it's a perfect segway to the poise debate. My argument is moreso along the lines of why I don't think poise is a good game mechanic to begin with. People shouldn't have to rely on a universal mechanic to balance the game for them. Ideally, a game should give each weapon unique characteristics that would allow them to compete well against each other. Having different classes of weapons with unique weapon arts and characteristics is a far more dynamic system than having to rely on poise to counter fast weapons. I rather see a street fighter game where each character has their own unique v-trigger than see a street fighter game where every character has a focus attack.

 

from what I've gathered poise and heavy armor were nerfed hard. By the time I was PvPing poise was not worth. Katana worked fine with no fucks given (mostly 0 poise armor) and generally performed better as a lightweight <30% fast roll build. Even with other weapons (straight sword, caestus, and a few great sword setups) poise wasn't worth the benefits offered by flynns and <30% stamina regen combined with high ADP fast-rolls.

 

I've found great swords infinitely more useable with 3's HA system, as an estoc/straight sword counter in particular. I want old-school poise but I guess you're at least half right. Good players can usually get around HA and the poise 3 has does jack fucking shit to counter the STATS (I'm looking at you, endurance...) that it damn well fucking should. At the very least it should break the roll-catch chain one or two hits earlier. "Setup poise" is a good idea but also poorly implemented.

 

cool tech:

 

too bad its useless vs ccd/wp/gfs/estoc..............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited by Nescient
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