Desert Fox

Ok, so I picked up FA for $5. Figured out why they changed the movement mechanics, the precision from the old controls' buttons doesn't work right with sticks and FPS style. QB movement has its appeal, although I find it's a bit too twitchy or spastic. Gundam fans must love it. I'd rather have more delay between QB's, and a bit stronger normal boosting both in speed and in responsiveness from a stop or changing directions (it's sluggish). QB should require more calculated dodging, instead of seeming to encourage spam-dodging all the time regardless. There also doesn't seem to be any point to walking without boosting anymore. Personally I'd prefer finely tuned and tweaked movement mechanics for fun, and less emphasis on dual gunning and dual fire. Probably me being old fashioned but I liked the emphasis being primarily on positioning and maneuvering, with focus mainly on a single weapon or attack type (but which could be switched). Feels like it encourages spamming even more. Looking for some basic advice on design, for 1P only - more or less the equivalent of AC3's solid basics design: MG500 or SHADE good boosters decoys DM24/R24 R20/OC15 I can't be bothered with figuring out new stats, I just want reasonably accurate/quality weapons for missions with a solid frame and fundamentals. Simple usage.

Yeah BP is nearly as accurate as the most accurate ranged guns, except it hits harder with more heat and stun. Plus a boatload of ammo. You definitely don't need to go to short range with it. (although you can)

Well overall BZs sucked throughout the series as a class, up to [edit]SL anyway in my opinion, mainly because they didn't lead targets. NX/NB/LR the BP and black one are suddenly very good because they track. I like the bigger box of the black one over BIG in LR, it's similar to the BIG with a smaller bullet, less heat, less stun, bigger box and more ammo. The higher ammo and bigger box are more use in LR in my opinion - I prefer the black BZ to BIG. BIG needs a left HG for bigger box more, the BZ can often get away without it. In NX/NB they're pretty on par, six of one half a dozen depending on your preferences... (I like both equally in NX/NB) The black BZ will win a slugfest damage race vs BP trading shots, but that's really the only significant advantage other than weight if you're squeezed. Not very likely to occur in LR either. Works a little better to pick hard hitting shots in limited attack windows, but BP's better accuracy typically more than makes up for that overall. Let me rephrase a bit about the mobility - if you want to use the black BZ, it's easier on a more mobile AC, the black BZ is pretty hard to use on a heavy frame in LR. You can, but you'll have to work significantly harder than with BP for the same results, quite possibly less. If you're going for pure efficiency, it's better to fit BP on somehow, but the black BZ is easier to fit on more mobile ACs since it weighs a bit less. Plus it gets boring always using BP. I don't remember about the arms, pretty sure the super heavy ones were nowhere worth the tradeoff for def in LR. If the LEMUR were the mid arms with heavy class def, I preferred to avoid (they looked stupid on heavies in my opinion, haha) those but they're definitely good. BP on the left typically isn't great, although it could work if you use it similar to GRIFFON like I noted above, especially if you have SELENA backing it up. That requires being pretty careful with your energy if they come in with HGs or other heat stuff though. It's a bit wonky in general, you basically have to use the missile or decoy lock and delayed left firing and hold off your R gun if it makes the box too small - it can work but it's kind of clunky. It's still way better than stuff like L MGs or shotguns though, and probably most other L guns except the top notch stuff - but fitting it usually isn't worth the bother. I don't remember the specs on the AC, you could put the frame together and get a basic idea.

I dunno, in the video I'd say it's a relatively even fight, single SHADE vs the energy EOs and other dual guns LCC had. SHADE is good in NB too, I had a max shell def mid that only used it and 2 WRAITH hangars, with FLEET to help dodging with the heavy frame - it could hold its own against most stuff pretty well. I forget, was RS on par with SHADE in LR? It must've been close, but slowed down more by shell def and had bit smaller box. I don't even remember the top tier guns in LR. The ones that come to mind are SHADE, RS, HPs, GRIFFON, and the super heavy BZ. Some rifles were good too but I vaguely recall them being more like tier 2? As for BZs, 2 viable BZs in LR are better than ALL garbage, like in AC1-SL.

I have to disagree, they're not as good as in NX/NB, but they're still pretty usable - you have to work a bit harder than with rifles or SHADE though. LR on the whole is a game where it's harder to get a definitive haymaker in, generally. There's a few exceptions, but here's a quick summary of what that means. Heavies can work, I played one. If you use a heavy there's a few things to remember. - go with arms on the lighter end of the heavy scale, don't use the super heavy ones - your choice of guns is critical - use a heavy core, SELENA and the heavy no-OB hangars one are probably best - avoid using much weight for back weapons - best Left guns are GRIFFON, the super heavy BZ, or HP/WRAITH (boost lock size) - best Right BZs are the black one and the super heavy BZ Heavy Tactics I used to use the RM36 missiles and GRIFFON at the same time to make dodging harder and give GRIFFON a bigger and easier lockbox to work with, with some careful SELENA EO thrown in if the opponent got close. (be careful you don't use too much energy then get hit with overheats) GRIFFON had good accuracy for LR. The combination usually got pretty good damage before running dry, then I'd dump both for a bigger BZ lockbox and some added speed. Then you either pick ranged shots with the BZ (super heavy one with lots of ammo) or use the BZ and SELENA together in closer ranges. Not a top tier setup, but worked pretty decent overall. Stick with the BZs if you're running a heavy and like big guns. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjyvDOOg26s Most people recommend SHADE in general due to its accuracy and better damage and damage rate than rifles, plus it cuts through shell def. I made a Gundam AC that was basically just a bunch of shell def (although I picked parts to look like a Gundam - shields typically aren't worth the weight) and the SHADE and it was half decent in VS. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdsUtWh8E8Y The black BZ is better on ACs that have a bit more mobility, the super heavy one is better for heavier ACs, quite a bit more accurate with more ammo depth, but not quite as good at damage racing. Here's a video of me using the black BZ on a mid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_L7nHTfkpE HP are best HGs, they have high power for HGs, pretty big stun, bigger lockbox, accuracy, and high damage rate for minimal weight. Plus in the Left hand they boost other lockbox sizes. Sounds to me you prefer big guns so I'd go with the BZs.

ELENA brings the NIGHT down to reasonable, user has to work some then and faster ACs can keep breaking the box. GN210 and Sawa might be ok restricted to ND8 if it's not FCS boosted - it doesn't lead as well. I'd have to play around with it to say for sure. Even NIGHT's much more balanced with ND8 than with BLAZER. Nice, I dug the K99 - it was a bit hard to use with that big shot drain though. And it was a bit annoying you almost had to take the ROOK core if equipping it on heavies, or cut your killpower significantly.

Yeah that sounds right, I think Duneman had the heavy RJs, along with Alex. Was more disappointed in myself, I prefer more matchup variety that requires different strategies and tactics, keeps things more interesting. With reasonable odds of winning. GN210, NIGHT, and Sawa all should've been ND lock, they're decently balanced then.

That might've been me, I think I vaguely remember packing the inside orbits. I thought I was running a heavy, but it might've been the heavy RJ legs. Typical GN210/Multi. I wussed out because well, I was a noob to human VS. Ego and fear make you lame, what can I say. Should've just played War Machine with the NIGHT to at least stand out and go down in style. Ah well, I've learned. I'm somewhere around the 14 or 15 minute mark, in a white t-shirt and shorts. At least I think it's me. I only got past the first round because whoever I was playing walked straight into the GN210 and tried to trade shots with a smaller gun (was that you?), then I went down to Duneman in round 2 who had a similar AC to me.

Sent you a pm, don't want to make you put a bunch of ACs together, but not thrilled with trying to find old AC games and a PS2 and shell out for those either... We'll see how it goes. Worst comes to worst, I'll probably just ask you to put together a very few ACs.

Just watched some of the rest, obviously you're right. Duh me. It's MOC2. I see Joust and Ky Kiske (Jon) and Kobel (Ben) there too. I think I even saw myself for 1 second, haha!

So after watching all those old AA vids, I realized ironically even though AA was slower you had to anticipate the opponent half the time or you risked getting pulverized. Especially with dual slot launchers that packed a wallop - one full volley could decide matches. If you tried to rely on reacting to a well placed or well timed missile swarm it often wasn't possible to cycle through to decoys fast enough to matter. (especially true cycling folding cannons) Reacting often meant you ate the volley or a big chunk of it, which would often swing the match. That led into decoy and missile head games, fun times.

Oh yeah I just checked that out, it's not MOC I don't think - some east coast gathering if I'm not mistaken. Don't see any of the west coasters in the audience but I didn't take a good look. I vaguely recall being aware of this get together at the time (might've been on short notice for me), but I couldn't go for some reason. I think I saw LCC in the video at some point. Was that in Boston or somewhere else? Karl (Sandman) and Alex were there running their AA ACs. Karl had mad quad skills particularly in AA. He was noted for running essentially paper mache quads and holding his own, also being a primo shot with the GNL.

I found my old NB ACs, surprise. Half are crap, but I'd forgotten about my NB missile boat and my monster shell def mid which had only the SHADE and a couple hangars for offense.

I was reminded of each AC game's shortcomings after watching a pile of old AC videos. It was pretty funny watching them nail guys in mid-air with the large rocket though. With JP rules NIGHT owns practically everything, except HGs in CQ and even that's debatable. I prefer US rules for more variety and I think our rule of NIGHT/Sawa/GN210 with the small ND box was actually pretty good balance wise. AA was fun, most frame types could work, (quads were challenging and hovers had it rough tho) and most weapons you had at least 1-3 viable, except R MGs and BZs.

I'll think about it, but unless I have any luck digging up the old games and a PS2 somewhere for a reasonable price I'm not going to put in too much effort. Plus I'd need to mail you a memory card for the saves or something, no way am I going through all that stupid S rank and weird story paths for parts in SL-LR. If I can find them I might be up for it, or if one of you guys can build a few of my old ACs, if it ends up being a show up and play with you guys supplying the gear. That's a hassle and not sure I'd want to bother - I'd rather put the ACs together myself anyway if I can. Not even sure I remember most of my old ACs, although our old youtube videos help.

Saw another AC VD video, and I can't get over all the flashing, colours and blurring when you get hit. Feels like someone jumping in front of the TV and yelling at you when you get hit. Distracting, annoying and not fun. Do people like these things? Although actually I'm reminded of AC1-MOA getting blasted by grenades... In general it seems to lack the straightforward simplicity of the basic elements of the old games. (AC1-SL, mainly) Too much complicated for its own sake. The old ones just boosting was fun, not sure if that's still true. Even though there's many things to consider in the old AC games, they're quickly obvious in play and easy to wrap your head around. Are the new ones like that? It's too bad, us old school hardcore fans were mostly on the same page overall on where we thought AC should go - basically a more complicated, customizable character, balanced tactical 3D fighting game of sorts. AC probably still has that potential but it'll probably never be realized anywhere near it. At this point I think its ship has sailed.

I may be in the market for some of the old games if anyone has them and is ready to let them go if they don't use them anymore, if the price is right. Mainly interested in AA-NX, it'll probably be mainly 1P use. NB and LR maybe if LCC is interested in doing a get together or there are people on kai. Both seem pretty unlikely. AC2 I can take or leave. Just feel like boosting around and blowing stuff up, and tinkering with designs a bit, for old times' sake. Missions and limited arenas are fine - I'll probably have more fun just boosting around doing OB runs and OB glides in missions and against wanker-class garbage AI than honing any competitive skills or ability.

Woot, hockey gold! Go Canada!

One video shows everyone standing around watching with TVs all over tables and stuff - reminds me of MOC in California and our East Coast get together in Boston way back in the day. Pretty good skill levels. JP players use Hard mode. NIGHT is super dominant, although for some reason they don't seem to use the GN210 or Sawa much. Some screw around ACs by Zedol on the other site - their play reminds me of Joust and the Sacramento players when they were just digging into experimenting with AA VS.

The only big thing I didn't like about AC3 was the inaccracy of BZs and the R gun GRs. It would've helped if some of the other missile packs were a little more effective besides DM24, ditto for cannons compared to the GNL. The VS stages could've been better too. All in all still pretty solid.

Ha, maybe we should try and do an old school AC VS for old times sake in the summer, presuming I can find a ps2 and the games for cheap. I'll probably be heading up that way at some point anyway. Never met Omni but maybe we could talk him into it, might be fun to fire up the old AC games for a day or two of VS. Or not, if no one cares, haha.

Because Gundam sells more?

I've included some timeline events too, for kicks. AC1 - Awesome as the first customizable mech game that had a feel of grit and newness to it. Insect spider infestations, exploring space stations, finding parts in missions (Moonlight), fighting off other ACs in missions (who can forget when the red AC and the BZ AC made appearances?) often after already being roughed-up (everyone was a noob) and moving up arena ranks before finally encountering Nineball in the final mission! Introduction of Human Plus. First area effect grenade launcher. (blasts were massive and no OB) Very first PvP VS. PP - Not bad, but not spectacular, basically an expansion pack of 1. Somewhere around here or in MOA figuring out the Moonlight shredded everything in VS. MOA - Many more useful parts. E-MG, E sniper, E slug gun (anyone remember that insanity? haha), vertical missiles. First full arena, with replays - you can see what the opponent did and copy it. Many arena opponents who kicked ass but were not Plus. (JP players) I still remember that "shotgun" (really "stun gun") and verts light AC I practiced against so much. (ironically I'd forgotten about it, but that weapon combo ended up being my staple) Better VS stages. Huge replay value for VS practice in the arena, and finding gameplay quirks. Lights with Moonlight dominate everything. California scene starts playing regularly in Sacramento, one of the oldest AC forums/boards with a group that actively plays each other regularly. I'm on there but across the continent. Many new discoveries made regarding parts and game depth, particularly around VS play. Not sure if LA scene starts here or with AC2 or AA, but pretty close time wise. AC2 - Introduction of OB. Heavies, tanks, and missiles beefed up exponentially. Extensions and insides added. Accuracy ramped up insanely. Felt much slower pace. Arena for VS practice. Parts a bit limited. Not my fave at the time, but ok. AA - Better balancing of OB, and movement enabling better dodging. More parts. Much improved VS stages for i-link play. All around, quite well balanced in parts and weapons, although limited selections. Energy shields appear. Many discoveries made and new tactics developed mainly for human VS. OB jousting, OB runs, OB gliding, Poke of Death, T9 Limit Release, Missile boats, blade-pull pursuit, supertank, superlight, etc. Joust essentially refuses to play normal ACs and becomes known in the community as AC's mad scientist. Others gain reputations, Sandman for quads, Magus for power heavy RJs, Olliver and his brother (or cousin?) for being ruthless, Watcher for being cool under pressure. AC3 - Shift to faster movement and mobility, reduced accuracy, less effective missiles, fewer parts, EO cores, and the left howitzer makes blading near obsolete and much more difficult in VS. Fairly solid balance but limited parts. OB jouster tanks and superheavies seem dominant. Fun, but limited selection when designing. At the time I liked it a lot better than AA, but in hindsight I prefer AA's higher weapon accuracy and more effective missiles. VS stages lacking. Heavy guns were crap so heavies have to use small guns - boo. MOC2 goes down, AA. I attend but am a human VS noob. I go down in the second match but don't care as matches between vets are obviously far beyond my current abilities and cool. Highlight of MOC2 - Watcher holding his own with Owl (a high-drain light sniper) vs Magus's power-heavy Omega Dragon (R grenade and lots of missiles) in the Trainyard with very little room to maneuver. One mistake and Owl could be finished. The battle goes to the wire. Watcher loses, but the battle leaves us noobs stunned at the skill level and precision - any of us would have been steamrolled in seconds if piloting Owl. (some other players probably had similar levels, it just wasn't so glaringly obvious) We are inspired. SL - AC3 on steroids. New OB cores have greater range and speed, making weapons even less accurate. Solid EOs and solid shields appear. Left guns dominate. Blading is rendered near-unusable in human VS. Lot of experimentation since there are so many new parts. Human VS scene soured when client lag is discovered, making matches unfair. Breaking weapons introduced and immediately panned as it can decide matches. Superheavies and tank jousters still fairly dominant. At the time, my favorite AC game, despite its flaws. Now I'd want bullet speeds increased and missiles to track better. Better VS stages, though still with room for improvement. Heavy guns still suck, boo. NX - Return to grit, lower mobility and higher accuracy. (similar to AC2) Heat drains energy and is crippling, unless designed for - worse, is abusable by the opponent. Everyone learns ASAP heat must be designed for. Many players find it too annoying, spoils their fun, and quit. Others eventually learn to do their best to work around it. Weapon clips are introduced and nobody likes them, but everyone gets used to it. Hangar weapons are introduced and cool, but blades lose their tracking and become more difficult to use. Reasonably fun, after lengthy growing pains. OB and EO are much better balanced than AC3/SL, but EOs seem to be more dominant due to heat and mostly poor arenas. X-link kai is introduced and players can play each other online for the first time ever. NB - Mobility improved so dodging is easier, similar to AA. Heat is reduced although still functions the same - seems less crippling than NX. OB and EO are better balanced but EO still seems to have a slight edge. The 1P game is the worst AC ever and a total waste of money. If you have people to play, it feels much like AA an improved NX with more feasible designs and parts. Human VS is fun for those who have x-link kai or local buddies. Everyone else hates it. LR - OB is nerfed, and AC jinking is faster, making all weapons less accurate vs humans as bullets stay the same velocity. Missiles are nerfed again. Feels like a return to AC3/SL but with a bit more accuracy, with OB somewhat hobbled and normal boosters increased. Certain gun/missile combos now don't integrate well due to slow missile locks or small gun boxes. Left guns shrink FCS significantly, to the point it may be better to go with one gun and a blade again if using missiles. Parts break and hard landings happen more, AC piloting at times feels like walking on eggshells. (I presume this was to limit flight, but I'd rather increase booster drain) many VS matches have a tendency towards whittling. AC4 on - who cares ALL OF THE ABOVE Needing ranks to get parts in 1P is almost universally despised as bad game design and unnecessary frustration. Everyone bemoans the plethora of garbage parts that waste space in virtually every AC game. Everyone bemoans that From doesn't seem to care about balance for VS in general. No one can figure out why From doesn't put some effort into better VS stages.

After watching old AA/SL/NB/LR vids then watching some AC4 and AC5 vids, I got thinking about this again. It's clearer, for myself at least. Here are a couple of my biggest reasons. 1. BASIC COMBAT Combat doesn't look or feel very differentiated. QB and shoot. Over and over. While there's jockeying for position, it looks and feels repetitive to me. I don't see the distinctness in style compared to the old games where you had snipers, close quarters, supertanks, OB jousters, bladers, missile boats, quads. Old AC games felt more like fighting games, attack and defend, looking for and trying to create openings that could be exploited. The new games look like keep boosting and shooting, just keep working on maintaining a good position almost constantly until someone loses. I remember when Watcher's sniper fought my supertank in AA (I was a noob then) and had to change his strategy and tactics, and work to get his offense around my shield. Don't see that must-change-strategies but can-do with same AC and good piloting much in the new gen from what I can tell. 2. STRATEGY DE-EMPHASIZED There's two aspects to this. First, there doesn't seem to be much if any planning to offenses anymore, just QB like crazy, position as you go, and shoot a lot. It's most obvious in the old games in AA - it's so slow it forces you to do more strategic thinking as you plan your attack when playing cat-and-mouse with cover. Now it seems to matter less, but that more calculated element of the older games was something I enjoyed. It also seems to be missing the reliable "potential KO threat" of big missile swarms in AA or NB, but which were basically blockable through defenses. The haymaker punch so to speak - and without much telegraphing, but limited ammo. (doesn't work for guns - either too effective or ineffective) 3. NO PIZZAZ Here I'm going on minimal info for the new games, so feel free to correct me. One thing I liked a lot about the old AC games was the higher level tricks and maneuvers. Running after an OB, OB gliding, various turn booster stuff, blading to pull yourself after a fleeing opponent, etc. I don't know if such things are in the new games, but it looks like no, and if they are they don't seem be as cool - my sense is unless something can be abused for a win it doesn't rate very high. By contrast, OB gliding was useful and would help, every higher level player would use it, but it wasn't going to win matches by itself. Seriously, just doing the tricks on your own was fun even if you weren't playing VS. 4. OVERCOMPLICATED MECHANICS & DESIGN I don't have hours and hours to spend mastering new controls anymore - and it better be fantastic fun reward if I do. (not good enough as is) I also don't have hours to figure out how to design a basic AC that works and can get the job done, or new overcomplicated and unnecessary mechanics. While old AC games had these problems too, for design at least you could basically grab an MG and a missile pack and be on your way. AC parts also feel overly complicated - more spider or insect like than giant robot. Less human looking. They don't seem as cool. I'm not excited to see other people ACs and color schemes anymore. 5. STAGE/VISUAL CLUTTER In the old Born City stage, it felt like someone threw a bunch of debris and junk on a hockey rink and before the players play. Interferes with movement and adds no value - shouldn't be there. I see similar in an AC5 mission vid, with an AC in a city "tripping" over clutter almost non-stop. New AC games the FCS seems too busy, and too much clutter in the stages - for me there's too much distraction from targets and threats. Should be simple and easy to identify targets and threats purely by visual, and with less clutter from the FCS or stage.

Blow them up!