G84P is a rad generator

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

The problem I have with the FUDOH is that it's so clunky. It's nice for rushing due to the obscene cap it has, but you really need to have the weight to spare. Odds are, FUDOH/GULL isn't going to be any faster than G84P/VULTURE2 on most designs, due to the difference in weight, and the latter will drain less anyhow.

 

Word, I'm with you. Fudoh is definitely clunky and pretty much a novelty, too. I still feel it has a slightly more realistic niche than g84p. Also, I wasn't really comparing it against g84p since I've always felt they fulfill different roles.

 

Is the heat difference so much more drastic than the energy difference? I know I'm down on pvp experience compared to you guys, but single player does provide a few opportunities to test heat related performance. G84P has never left me burning unless I went with GULL. I'm pretty sure I can even tap boost on my staple and not go into overheat (I can't test this because my PS3 is dead).

 

Yeah, you can run EN weapons on LOTUS, but you're going to have less energy. For a given rest period, higher ENO will always give you more energy. Of course, this won't matter if your AC is "burning", but I can't see that happening. Most G91 proponents here think G91 has enough EN, I think G84P is cool enough as is, no need to seek lower CV.

 

It's night and day difference going from playing computer to playing a person, for me anyhow. The basic point I'm trying to make is that g91 and lotus have always done everything g84p does without the risk from extra heat.

 

Is there a role for g84p? Sure. That doesn't change the fact that it's a novelty part and generally will be a poor choice if you're playing for keeps. There was this thing I wrote awhile back...I think Spike qouted me in his guide. It's when I was talking about defining low tier parts. g84p fits the description pretty well. I'll edit it in once I find it.

 

EDIT: Damn, nevermind. I couldn't find it. I guess we didn't save it from old ACO.

 

SUPER EDIT: I just realized I didn't actually give the old definition. Let me see if I can remember and summerize the relevent part, "Low tier parts are parts that are trumped outright by another, similar, part."

Edited June 2, 2010 by Colon Mokto

[Harakiri Tiger]

Yah, low tier are parts are the parts that have alternatives that are fully better than them. AC1 starter parts were very much like that, as are most starter parts. There were clear upgrades to most of them. Mid tier parts are just parts that have the potential to be used in a rare few bots and work great, like 10% of the whole, but not in the other 90%. Niche stuff, in other words. High tier parts are just the parts that work best on the other 90% of bots. The biggest advantage to high tier parts is that they tend to work nearly as well in those niche designs as the mid-tier parts do, haha. Broken parts are just parts that are mechanically overpowered to the point that they limit design/style to a single direction.

 

The more blurry that mid/high tier are the more balance the game has concerning variety/style, though not necessarily mechanically.

 

That's how I see tiers anyway. A blend of their mechanical ability and their applicable roles.

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

Nah, mid-tier is wider than that. It's all the parts that don't impose themselves on the metagame or that can do what a top-tier part can do but slightly worse while still somehow giving you some sort of neat advantage, and lastly the niche parts that fit the 10%-90% example you gave...although I would say "niche" is the wrong term here since a lot of mid-tier guns can be used fine without losing out much in performance compared to some top tier guns.

 

Or I guess a faster, cleaner, explanation would be that mid is anything that isn't so bad it goes in low or so godly it goes in high.

 

examples:

 

-rs is high-tier because it's got supreme accuracy, good poking damage, and goes incredibly well with most of the ideal choices for the l arm...thus manipulating the metagame directly. You can't design a serious bot without thinking about how to deal with rs using bots. It's one of the premier guns for aggressive bots and runner/staller bots. So good.

 

-pixie3 is mid-tier cuz while it's the best mg and it can in fact give some nice scenarios in terms of the metagame, it's not really all that 'dominant' when you get down to it, and can be neutralized in a fight...and mgs in general don't impose themselves on the metagame in LR (not quite high tier rule).

 

-81g is a mid-tier gun cuz it has certain applications it's good at, but isn't the easiest gun in the world to handle and doesn't attack the metagame directly, and because the BP and RL can do a lot of things this gun can do for most general uses (90-10 rule). 81g = Tauros

 

high-tier parts are the parts that are the parts that somehow manipulate the metagame at it's core, or stuff that's always one of the best options you can have. They tend to be things you can slap on and blows up the designs power by a big chunk. It's tricky to pinpoint parts on it, though, since a metagame can change depending on the crowd.

 

-rs is high-tier because it's got supreme accuracy, good poking damage, and goes incredibly well with most of the ideal choices for the l arm...thus manipulating the metagame directly. You can't design a serious bot without thinking about how to deal with rs using bots. It's one of the premier guns for aggressive bots and runner/staller bots.

 

-shade is high-tier because it's the quintessential staller gun, and LR loves it some stalling action. It's not really good for aggressive play but it takes no brains to use otherwise...and somehow manages to NOT benefit from practice with it. What a faggy gun.

[Harakiri Tiger]

Yah, the way I said it is a lot more black and white, which in reality it isn't. Haha. I feel mid-tier parts are easiest to define by showing the low-tier and high-tier parts. Which is pretty much what you said in your short and simple line. Everything that isn't one of those two tiers is mid-tier, but that's also a very blurry definition compared to my first one, haha.

 

Shade is so good.

[Hollywood]

You need about 15k normal cooling to run G91 effectively. while i like G84P for an ac that runs an en weapon set up, it needs 15.2k normal cooling. these tunes that go into that cooling can go toward any other area if you run g91.

 

I'd have to find it, but i have that faq if you want a quote from it PD.

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

I just wanted to see the part that had my definitions for tiers. That'd be good. I wanted to see what I said.

[Hollywood]

I only had it in hard copy PD but you can always enlarge the pics

 

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/agrioskorax/001.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/agrioskorax/002.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/agrioskorax/003.jpg

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

Cool beans. Thanks!

[torkair]

G84P works great on Quads due to the ridiculous cooling offered by the majority of the leg type and the inherently high drain. It takes a special individual to ride that 500 point redline for the majority of a match and not drain out.

[Terminator98]

IMO

 

G84P's Pros:

 

- High EN Output

- Relatively High Condenser Capacity

 

 

G84P's Cons:

 

- Low Condenser Cap compared to CR-G91

- higher calorific value compared to CR-G91

- Worse weight when compared to CR-G91

 

 

So now, what can we do with this generator's pros?

 

- Equip more drainful parts without feeling too much "drainy"

- Shoot EN weapons at a more constant rate, or with less need of "intervals" to let the EN gauge recharge

- Boost a bit more frequently

 

 

The cons will have us:

 

- Direct more tunes to cooling, or equip better cooling parts

- Try to light up the mech a bit to squeeze in more guns or get faster

- Not be able to boost as long as beforem courtesy of the lower EN Condenser capacity

- Fry More if we do nothing for heat

- not be friendly for Over Boosting

 

 

ALSO:

 

Most tanks will prefer CR-G91.

Your mileage may vary on quads. Mine does.

 

BUT MOST IMPORTANT:

 

I still have to find a situation where G84P SURPASSES AND REMOVES ANY REASON FOR CR-G91 TO BE THERE.

 

 

SO: G84P does not suck. It is made to be sucky by the "make others sucky" generator, known as the Crest Retard - Generation Nine One

[Niji Superfan]

See, but you're terrible. Therein lies the distinction.

 

Regardless, I stand by what I've already stated; it's handy when you need the energy. I mostly like it when I feel like being obnoxious and using two energy weapons at once, though it also lends itself well to silly shit like RJs and shield designs.

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

To each his own, I guess. Do you homie.

[Terminator98]

Hmm... someone likes to keep grudges here...

And of course... we're all terrible Altair, including you.

 

But yeah, to each his own.

 

Should the topic now discuss of TM's homosexuality?

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

I'm definitely not terrible. There's years of years of tournament proof to that effect.

[LCC]

I'm ok.

[Shirtless Crackhead]

Back in Nexus, AngryRavenX ran a Gull/Kujaku/Linden setup that literally would go the whole fight overheated and it just didn't seem to bug him.

 

Was pretty dope.

[Mom]

I remember the whole notion of backdoor cooling was widely spread back in aco in the nexus days around 04-05, I finally tried it out but it just never seemed to work better than something that was designed to never overheat as opposed designed to work around overheating.

[Shirtless Crackhead]

It worked well for comp matches if people were using H3 handguns, without there being decent bans on them atleast.

 

Prolly the main reason both he and I did it.

 

I used the Fudoh for backdoor cooling until they banned the H3's.

[ChaosApostle]

I'll have to agree that I feel MAGNOLIA is out of place. It has a higher calorific than G84P and a lower condenser capacity than G91. Sure, it has a higher emergency capacity, than either of them, but I don't really see the point when it weights only 12 points of weight less than G91 for a gain of 58 points of output over G91, when G91 is tuned max output, and MAGNOLIA is tuned max weight. Even tuned 7 tunes of weight to match G91's base weight and the rest to output, the gain is only 164 greater output, for a 3000 emergency cap difference at the increase in calorific of 386 points.

 

I thought that the lower your redzone the faster you'd get out of OPD. Thus, the G84P tuned for max weight would put it under MAGNOLIA's base of 515 by 10 points, with a base advantage of 534 to 640 points of output as well, and a 142 point lower calorific, which is thus much lower odds of an OPD occurring, and a small enough redzone to recover from quicker should it even occur.

 

I've never seen the use to MAGNOLIA over G91 or G84P. G84P is an alternative to KONGOH if you are looking more for the condenser cap and lower calorific value to feed your higher energy use energy weapons, and have the room to fit it in place of KONGOH as well.

 

As for ORCHID and KUJAKU... well KUJAKU seems far more useless compared to Orchid, despite the fact that Orchid's weight is the biggest issue to it, otherwise it is the largest redzone and condenser capacity in the game, and it is in fact cooler than KONGOH as far as calorific is concerned, so if you tuned it down to 958 weight, maybe you could find some strange experimental use for it that wouldn't be the most competitive thing, but surely not entirely impractical... I mean you could possibly BDC with that redzone and probably have it work out, if the output can manage to keep up that is. But, it does take up load room for weaponry, so it loses the brunt of its practicality based on that alone. If it's base weight was 958 and you could tune it to 835~865 it would have been a hell of a lot more practical than what it is... though still very obscure in that practicality.

Edited July 30, 2010 by ChaosApostle

[Harakiri Tiger]

Redzone recharges at normal rate, but drains at 1/3 of it's normal speed. That means redzone is effectively recharging 3x faster than your greenzone. It's one of the more incredibly awesome reasons behind Lotus rocking. Light, Low Heat, Super Recharge. So badass it reeks of it.

 

Magnolia has a major limiting factor in that everything it does can be done by other generators with less heat output to have to deal with.

 

Kujaku is typically more usable simply due to the weight. LR is very weight centric. Very, very weight centric. Neither are intelligent moves for a seriously competitive bot, though. It's a huge negative to your overall speed and moreso to your acceleration, both of which are highly dominate traits of the LR engine.

 

As far as G84P is concerned, I see no use for it except for on standard core AC designs. An OB and EO core should never use that generator. Too much heat output and too little redzone, both of which are bad for the EO/OB cores.

[ChaosApostle]

Ah, I see. I kept thinking the heat factor alone is what kills Kujaku's use, despite turning being a serious issue with Orchid's weight. It's been a while, I'm thinking a little too NX of LR. Though as stated, they both suck to the other options. Edited July 30, 2010 by ChaosApostle

[Harakiri Tiger]

I actually partially lied since I was typing that last post in a hurry. Redzone only recharges at normal speed when you've genbusted. During a non-genbust it will only recharge at 1/3 speed. It's the reason that some generators are safer to genbust with than others.

 

The biggest problem with LR is that generators like Fudoh are now pretty poor in quality due to weight issues. LR puts a heavy emphasis on underweighting due to acceleration problems that come with different boosters. In NB, for example, Fudoh was more usable. In LR, you're pretty much getting your face crapped on by tier bots for seriously trying to run it. If you disregard the weight, though, Fudoh looks like a wonderful generator in LR. Just one of those things the LR metagame does to things, I guess.

 

The best generator in LR is easily Lotus, with G91 being the most standard use Gen after that. If for whatever reason you absolutely need more power than Lotus provides, you use G91. On super rare occasions you can design a bot that can use another generator instead of Lotus/G91, but it's very often a novelty design.

[Rogan]

I use the 84 on mission ACs, but not usually when I need to fight another AC, unless its a RJ missile spammer on a standard core.