StarCraft II Topic

[LCC]

I feel like hydras should be tier1 and roaches should be hive with burrow/regen/movement already researched.

[Harakiri Tiger]

[SUMERIAN BLOOD GOD]

The Phoenix buff makes sense and confuses me at the same time. They already do more damage, have longer range, and fire faster than mutas while only costing 50 more minerals. Yeah, the build time is greater but pretty much all of protoss units have a longer build time. They're both two food and have the same health, too. Letting them attack while moving just makes it easier for them to outrange mutas. Plus, stargates produce phoenixes and void rays, both of which are super-effective against zerg with phoenixes able to snipe queens and overlords and void rays basically being an instant win if zerg doesn't already have hydralisks out. Stargate only requires a cybernetics core to be built which most protoss are going to build anyways to get sentries, stalkers, and warpgates. Basically, cybernetics core allows P to build 2 of their most useful PvZ units, 2 very useful buildings (one of which is practically essential in any Protoss strategy), and allows for air upgrades. Lair just allows you to build more buildings and get overlord and burrow tech, thus none of the unlocks are immediately available. Mutas are weak to phoenixes and stalkers while sentries can make muta attacks horribly ineffective with guardian shield reducing bounce damage to 1 and then 0 as well as being able to attack mutas directly. Now I'm not saying that mutas aren't viable against P since they're great against colossi and immortals and corruptor support can really help (plus corruptors can morph into brood lords later which protoss has a really tough time dealing with); I'm just saying that with all of those other things considered, phoenixes didn't really need a buff when they were already pretty good against mutas to begin with.

 

The health reduction on brood lord makes some sense but in addition to the armor reduction I think it might be a bit much. Brood lords are expensive as hell and take a long time to get to. They're super-dope versus protoss though, almost never used in zerg, and vikings are about the only thing T can do about them so I can see why they'd make them weaker. Guess we'll see how that affects things.

 

I think making ultralisks cheaper would help since brood lords do well against everything ultralisks do well against and are only a little more expensive but produce faster and are less food. Ultralisks are good against colossi/immortal/zealot armies but P can get more immortals and colossi to counter the ultralisks than Z can get ultralisks. Immortals/colossi/zealots can't hit brood lords at all and do well against a lot more P units so they're almost always a better choice. Ultralisks are good against marines and siege tanks but marauders in sufficient number can easily get rid of them plus T has a number of air options with two yamato cannons (each a constant 300 damage) able to kill a full health ultralisk, thor strike cannons stun and do 500 damage, and seeker missiles do a constant 100 damage. The yamato and seeker missiles are pretty expensive options and can be used against brood lords too (with only one yamato being needed) and the thor's kind of effective against brood lords but the ultralisk is higher risk for Z for less reward. The strike cannon research helps but its likely T will have the ability anyways by the time Z goes to ultralisks since it's such a good ability. I don't think the energy increase makes much difference in that matchup.

 

I think two food for roaches is too high and I think one food is too low. Since lings are 0.5 food maybe roaches can be 1.5 food? That way, every two roaches is 3 food. It'll help prevent Z getting massive roach armies early on while also allowing them to get enough roaches so that they're still a really effective T1 unit for early game.

 

I agree that the forge nerfs are silly.

Edited May 14, 2010 by Gary the Tennis Coach

[Mom]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NskJDjjlyro#t=1m03s

[Harakiri Tiger]

...phoenixes didn't really need a buff when they were already pretty good against mutas to begin with.

 

Mutalisks always beat Phoenix pre-patch 11. Phoenix always beat Mutalisk post-patch 11.

[SUMERIAN BLOOD GOD]

Mutalisks always beat Phoenix pre-patch 11. Phoenix always beat Mutalisk post-patch 11.

 

Yeah. I said they were pretty good, not better. I also said that it made sense and confused me since I see why they did it but don't see why it had to be such a big change. My point was that phoenixes plus other P units like sentries were usually able to deal with mutas fairly well, though that's not what my phrasing implied now that I read it back. It just seems to me like it's a lot harder for Z to incorporate air units into their army while only having one AA unit that isn't air or a static emplacement. Well, queens are AA but they might as well be buildings since they're too slow to mesh well with the typical high-speed zerg army and are far more important for their abilities.

 

Again, I don't think this means the game's imbalanced since zerg can produce units faster than Jesus and have cheap, low-tier units that are effective in practically every stage of the game. I just think the game'd be more interesting if zerg could do air play more often. It's almost like Z has to have a ling/roach/hydra force before it's safe for an air transition. ZvZ is a different story though and it's a lot safer to go air in this matchup. If you're not getting hydras, you're probably getting mutas. It's easier to get hydras though since they're half the gas.

 

I need to use infestor more often. It's too dope for me to keep forgetting that it exists.

[Harakiri Tiger]

Mutalisks always beat Phoenix pre-patch 11.

 

Yeah. I said they were pretty good...

 

I'm sure that as a Zerg player, you think the Phoenix was pretty good since it always lost, right?

 

The only time you would win with Phoenix against Mutalisk was when you had a significantly larger amount of Phoenix than he had Mutalisk. Something like 1.5x as many. Phoenix were not even remotely good against Mutalisk.

 

=P

Edited May 14, 2010 by Niji
Re-arranged my sentences.

[SUMERIAN BLOOD GOD]

wut.

 

That's not what I meant at all. Yeah, in pure phoenix-muta matchups phoenix would lose but I was saying that since P usually has stalkers and/or sentries before he has phoenixes it's not like he's forced to go mano-a-mano with mutalisks. Unless Z has hydras and/or corruptors in addition to his mutas then mutas are the only thing he can use against phoenixes. Each race depends on the supporting units to come out ahead. It's just that phoenix support units come out before the phoenix does while muta supports are only available at the same time the mutas are. Yeah, phoenixes lose air superiority when mutas come out but until mutas are out phoenixes can fly into zerg bases and snipe queens without a whole lot of risk. If there are a bunch of hydras or spore crawlers then you can just fly away and stash the phoenixes somewhere. They perform a similar function in PvZ as mutalisks do in Z's matchups (substitute worker harass/general sniping for queen sniping) but don't have a ground attack. They're also dope against P to float/kill immortals/colossi without worry. They're pretty bad against T though since they're afraid of everything except banshees and siege tanks. I definitely think the phoenixes needed a buff (despite what I said in my initial post. I forgot about PvT and remembered that void rays aren't effective against groups) since, like Z, unless protoss goes air they don't have a lot of options against air. I was just saying that I don't know if that specific change was the right way to go about it since it's a major difference from something like a damage/health/range boost. Like I said with what happened to the brood lord, we'll just have to see how much it affects things.

 

Now corrupters vs phoenixes is a tough matchup for P. Of course all P has to do is stop making air units/colossi until the corrupter's gone and hope it doesn't morph to a brood lord before you kill it! Otherwise you're kind of fucked until you get a void ray. Then you're fucked again if he gets some more corrupters!

Edited May 14, 2010 by Gary the Tennis Coach

[Harakiri Tiger]

No. Phoenix has always sucked absolutely vs Mutalisk, with or without support. The new mechanics make Phoenix absolutely win every fight against Mutalisk.

 

Any Protoss who went for early Phoenix support against Zerg was asking to get rolled by Roach/Ling. It was an absolute, hence Phoenix play was very underused. Using Phoenix for anything except for sniping Queens or Drone/Overlord harass was a waste of time, money, and micro. There's a reason Void Ray was favored over Phoenix in nearly every tournament so far. Even with the new patch updates, the Void Ray is still favored. I know that Phoenix looks like it countered Muta to some degree, but it never did at all. Phoenix were one of the worst Anti-Air units in SC2 up until patch 12.

 

Niether in a pure or not pure matchup did Phoenix ever work against Mutalisk. Your only scenario where Phoenix worked vs Mutalisk was when you got a shiiiiiiiiiiiiiton of Phoenix out ASAP and your oponent was fast teching to Muta, so he wouldn't have much ground. In that you could beat him by simply hunting down his Overlords quickly and trying to get 2x as many Phoenix as he would eventually have Mutalisk. You can watch NonY do that in the HDH Invitational, which is the only time I've ever seen Phoenix pre-patch 12 do any sort of successful combat in a fight that counts.

 

Once about 4 Mutalisk are out, you basically wanted to switch to an anti-air counter that consisted of pure Stalker/Sentry. By far, much, much more cost efficient and more useful in the lategame.

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

corsairs are cooler.

[LCC]

Corsairs also completely raped mutas and once you had 5 or more with +1 could not be killed by scourge. The problem was if you go sair heavy and z goes hydras you're put in a rough spot if you weren't going sair/reaver. It's probably a similar situation with phoenixes where you get rushed and die or play safe and have lower phoenix numbers compared to z's mutas. But i really know nothing about this game.

[Harakiri Tiger]

Yah, SC1 Sair vs SC2 Phoenix is pretty different. Mostly thanks to a lack of stacking and splash damage. SC2 Phoenix is relatively worthless after early-game unless you have an unbelievable mass of them. 10+. When you have about 10 of them you can maintain a crippling level of harass and map control. Early game the Phoenix just dominates Zerg, as long as you don't die to a ground rush. Ground rushes are far more difficult now that Roaches are 2 food, too. Phoenix weren't crippling at all pre-patch 12, since all you'd have to do is make 6-8 Muta to kill 10-12 Phoenix. Then the Muta are free to go on a rampage.

 

Generally speaking, you don't want to have Phoenix in your late game army unless your opponent is just massing Roach/Ling. Stalkers w/Blink are far too useful against Roaches and Sentries with Shield/Forcefield are just far too useful against Ling/Roach/Hydra. You want as many of those as you can get, especially now that the maxed Zerg army is far weaker than ever before. Collosus used to be needed to fight the super massive horde of Zerg units late-game, but not any longer. Nowadays you can shit all over most Zerg air units just by not making any air/Collosi yourself. Muta are worthless against Cannons and Stalker/Sentry. Corrupters are just useless until they get Brood Lords. Really, these last two patches have just really smashed the ZvP matchup.

 

That's why I'm pretty sure NonY will smash IdrA's brains in during the next round of the HDH Invitational.

 

I have no idea how TvZ stands, yet.

[SUMERIAN BLOOD GOD]

Ok. You keep responding like I thought Phoenixes were the ultimate anti-zerg weapon when that's not what I've said at all. I just said that without mutas/corruptors phoenixes could overlord/queen snipe with impunity. Once mutas were out their role was gone. That's it. If you take one thing away from everything I've ever said to you ever in my life regarding anything at any time ever, let it be that and let it be done. I'm never saying anything about another Protoss unit or building or color scheme again.

 

http://i44.tinypic.com/el6vl1.jpg

Please, continue your discussion.

[Harakiri Tiger]

Our Discussion:

 

Spoiler! --Click Here to View!--

I'm just saying that with all of those other things considered, phoenixes didn't really need a buff when they were already pretty good against mutas to begin with.

 

Mutalisks always beat Phoenix pre-patch 11. Phoenix always beat Mutalisk post-patch 11.

 

Yeah. I said they were pretty good, not better.

 

The only time you would win with Phoenix against Mutalisk was when you had a significantly larger amount of Phoenix than he had Mutalisk. Something like 1.5x as many. Phoenix were not even remotely good against Mutalisk.

 

That's not what I meant at all. Yeah, in pure phoenix-muta matchups phoenix would lose but I was saying that since P usually has stalkers and/or sentries before he has phoenixes it's not like he's forced to go mano-a-mano with mutalisks.

 

No. Phoenix has always sucked absolutely vs Mutalisk, with or without support. The new mechanics make Phoenix absolutely win every fight against Mutalisk.

 

You keep responding like I thought Phoenixes were the ultimate anti-zerg weapon...

 

Oh really? Doesn't seem that way to me. Seems to me like I've been responding about the worth of the Phoenix vs the Mutalisk and that's it. Almost none of my posts ventured into anything at all concerning other zerg units in our discussion. In fact, the one time I did was to show that going for fast Phoenix for harass is a risky business.

 

No, it seems to me like I've been arguing about this:

 

Spoiler! --Click Here to View!--

I'm just saying that with all of those other things considered, phoenixes didn't really need a buff when they were already pretty good against mutas to begin with.

 

Why? Because it is a lie.

 

I'm never saying anything about another Protoss unit or building or color scheme again.

 

Good. I'm sure you'll be much happier with your friends.

 

 

 

 

 

Spoiler! --Click Here to View!--

J~

[SUMERIAN BLOOD GOD]

Good. I'm sure you'll be much happier with your friends.

 

Spoiler! --Click Here to View!--

J~

 

Oh I'll be happy with them; you can count on that.

Spoiler! --Click Here to View!--

http://i44.tinypic.com/e7m1l3.jpg

But you can bet I'll be watching.

 

Watching.

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

give hellions mines!

[Harakiri Tiger]

[LCC]

It would suck if that were my only reason for getting a new comp. I've been overdue for a new comp for a couple years now, not to mention if i turn it off it randomly shuts off if i don't let it idle for a long time.

[Pendragon]

Well, looks like there's a new patch. It's REALLY big, so I'll put it in spoiler tags.

 

Spoiler! --Click Here to View!--

Just kidding. It's just a fix for the fags that use Macs. No more error messages for you.

 

Edit: also, Koreans are invading our servers.

 

Spoiler! --Click Here to View!--

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/63/ohfuck.png

Edited May 18, 2010 by Pendragon

[atdsutm]

when are you guys online?

 

anyways im trying that ghost mech thing in TL

[LCC]

Usually late at night. Just go on acu chat and ask to play. Edited May 19, 2010 by LCC

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

late at night in North America, anyhow. atdsutm is out in the philipines iirc.

[Neko Arc Chaos]

Well, looks like there's a new patch. It's REALLY big, so I'll put it in spoiler tags.

 

Spoiler! --Click Here to View!--

Just kidding. It's just a fix for the fags that use Macs. No more error messages for you.

 

Edit: also, Koreans are invading our servers.

 

Spoiler! --Click Here to View!--

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/63/ohfuck.png

 

 

you were playing at 4:15 am. That's late night for South Koreans bro.

[SUMERIAN BLOOD GOD]

Not really. S. Korea's 14 hours ahead of where I am so it'd be 8 p.m. there. It's 13 to 16 hours ahead of the rest of the country so it'd be 7 to 10 p.m. there depending on where penisdragon is. Even 10 p.m. isn't that late.

[Harakiri Tiger]

We're typically on SC2 between 6:00PM and 2:00AM (Central Time, US -6:00 GMT). We're not on all day, but we're on at random times throughout and sometimes for the entire time, haha. Just depends on how many people are willing to play. Most ACU players are absolute pussies when it comes to getting online and actually playing each other. The majority will look for any excuse to watch or to avoid playing against players they deem even slightly better than them.

 

Notable cases of players with at least one ball are KDanji, Noob, and Kakumei. The rest of us are ball-less women. I think I might start adding ballsyness to the SC2 Players List stats. Maybe that'll motivate people to grow some chin hair!

 

=D~

Edited May 19, 2010 by Niji
Added in a chin hair.