Call of Duty: Black Ops

[Shirtless Crackhead]

What I read.

 

HURR DURR I only play with the #1 tier weapon in CoD, then bitch about weapon imbalances.

 

~

 

What 2-shot weapons in CoD4, when your playing without SP or Jugg? the sniper rifles?

 

W1200/RPD Overkill setups, I used to shit on people with that, I used the penetration value of the RPD and ran Deep Impact, the W1200 don't need SP, the only difference is I can't kill w/ 2 bullets (as I could with SP), hence the point of playing w/o SP or Jugg to look at how CoD4's damage engine works, it's pretty balanced IMO when you take out SP and Jugg (the snipers get a huge disadvantage, but that's something to be compensated with damage modifiers).

 

The M60, the RPD, and the SAW where all usable weapon in CoD4. (regardless of SP/Jugg)

 

The only LMG in Bops worth a fuck is the Stoner, because it's basically a cracked out Commando/Galil that lets you do more damage at the price of some speed.

 

~

 

Let's compare...

 

CoD4

 

M16 - OP only because of SP, without SP it works like it does in Bops, fairly balanced

MP5 - really again, only OP because of SP letting two-shot kills up close, without SP it works like it does in Bops

 

FAMAS hmm...

 

35-25 damage, 937 rpm

 

CoD4 M4

 

30-20 damage, 850 rpm

 

Yeah, I can see why the FAMAS does better, although in Black Ops the fire rate of the MP5 and AK74u were dropped from 800 to 750, they had the same 40-20 damage; the FAMAS is the direct extension of the M4, only with increased damage and rate of fire.

 

If your trying to tell me that AR's where more OP in CoD4, your fucking retarded beyond all get out.

 

If your trying to tell me that SMG's are OP in black ops, again retarded.

 

Oh, treyarch also dropped the Rate of Fire on the M60 from 600 to 535.

 

Sure, the LMG's must be more useful, because Treyarch obviously wouldn't stat stack the AR's.

 

~

 

Not saying Black Ops is bad, but CoD4 has a much better balancing of damage rates, firing delays, reloads, etc.. than any other CoD game; with few exceptions.

 

Perks and stuff were not the best, obviously, but the actual weapons setup was pretty classy.

Edited December 31, 2010 by DangerWorldWide

[Mom]

The only time I didn't use stopping power in cod4 was when I ran silenced P90, which was my go-to stealth rushing/flanking class.

 

I am complaining about weapon imbalances in black ops, but there's a difference here. I'm an advocate of buffing the less-used guns and not an advocate of nerfing the most used guns-- which seems to be a popular notion among many of the black ops community.

 

When did I say assault rifles were better in cod4? I made my point time and time again that black ops is an assault rifle's game with ak74u thrown in-- which is a pseudo assault rifle at times in its own regards.

 

Your post also revolves around taking out stopping power. Did they ever take out stopping power though? No. You have to rate the weapons with stopping power calculated, because everybody runs that shit. Treyarch took out stopping power for a reason in Black Ops. Thank god they also took out killstreaks stacking. Now all they need to do is buff a couple more smgs.

[Shirtless Crackhead]

It does, because I'm trying to say that Treyarch had a perfect basis for damages, rates of fire, etc.. for a game without Stopping Power or a Juggernaut, and that CoD4 has better weapon balance than Black Ops, just that Black Ops has better perk balance that CoD4.

[Rachis]

@Wong

 

MP5 doesn't statistically compare to the Ak74u because the recoil kick values are what destroy everything that may seem similar between the two. The only way to successfully run a power smg out of the mp5 is to run steady aim and whore the hipfire. Even then you'll get similar performance out of the 74u and the 74u still gets decent midrange killing efficiency that just isn't present in the mp5.

 

The recoil in this game is everything because the weapons are so similar to each other as is. The 74u is not overrated. It straight trumps the mp5 and most 937rof smg's. This isn't even considering the attachments the 74u gets.

[Wong]

Rachis, you know that we both know the stats, in and out. With that said, yes, the 74u beats the MP5 in every way possible. However, this does not mean that the MP5 is a bad gun. As an SMG, the 74u is no overrated. As a weapon, it is. The MPL and Spectre are underrated though. Of course, calling something overrated and underrated is opinion based anyways. If you want to know how I feel out the MP5 vs. 74u in detail, you can look at my in depth comparison Den's site. I am the Corax bro.

 

http://denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?a...mp;page=1#32088

 

My break is over, so I will go through the rest of the thread four hours later.

[Rachis]

As far as the big picture is concerned I can agree with that considering the 74u is the exact same thing as the 47. I think the smg class as a whole is underpowered though. The mpl and 74u are the clear winners. I wouldn't believe that the mp5 is a bad gun, but it needs steady aim to have a solid chance in a lot of situations that might test it's range/accuracy. I have had my fair share of great games with it, but none of them without steady. As far as the stealth side of things I'm sure a silenced mp5 will perform there, but stealth ops is hardly a test of the weapon.

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

i prefer MP5k RF over 74u RF

[Rachis]

I've never understood the reason behind rf and double tap. They take your range away.

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

its an smg. mp5k isnt very reliable at mid-long, so why not buff its ability at close? versatility is more for ARs

 

also, RF is almost necessary for the skorp if you ever use it. even with RF you can still snipe people

[Mom]

Yeah I've never quite got rapid fire or double tap either. I tried both double tap on cod4's M60 and rapid fire on black ops' ak74u but I just don't like it. I know it's all preference however. The fact that a good amount of people like grip over rapid fire on ak74u means they can cope with the gun killing slower than famas/aug in cqc and would rather have the slightly better hip fire and sprinting speed.

 

Now I see where you're going with trying to compare cod4 without stopping power vs black ops, Raor. I do wanna ask one thing, though.

 

Without stopping power, the raw numbers say that most of the power smgs would still kill faster than most of the power assault rifles purely due to faster firing rate. Why is the thought of providing 35/20 to some of the smgs a bad idea? It would make some of the smgs very potent in close range, like they're supposed to be. Only downside I could think of would be less use for a couple of the shotguns, but perhaps those could use a slight buff as well. Or is it do you think the smgs should be able to kill in 3 shots as well, but have a slightly lower rof like 850 compared to 927? (That would apply to famas/aug as well, though I think we all like the idea of one of those two being an M4/ACR)

[Rachis]

its an smg. mp5k isnt very reliable at mid-long, so why not buff its ability at close? versatility is more for ARs

 

also, RF is almost necessary for the skorp if you ever use it. even with RF you can still snipe people

 

Doesn't matter if it's an smg. The kills just don't come as fast as they do normally and I burn right through ammo. In order for rapid fire to really take effect I'd have to get right in their grills and that's just a stupid way to play the game and it doesn't give you any versatility whatsoever. The 74u for example is forced to run even closer than it had to originally and then it loses all of its midrange capability when you could've just run a grip and made it stronger at every range. Rf makes absolutely no sense on 937 rof smg's because then you shred right through your mag for just one kill and if you aren't running the kiparis then good luck with 2+ v 1's. The only weapon it might make sense on is the mp5 because that gun has no range game, but even then you might as well just run the silencer. You won't be burning through ammo for no reason.

 

It just doesn't seem to have a real place in this game.

[Wong]

Lenin,

The sad thing is, it is blatently obvious that the RPK was suppose to replace the RPD, but with less ammo cap and center speed for better hip fire. Basically, they bastardize a legitamately great LMG to a worthless assault rifle.

 

I do not mind the HK21 and the Stoner though. But there should be at least two legitamate LMGs.

 

Rachis,

In my opinion, it is not that the SMGs are underpowered, it is that the ARs are slighty overpowered, with the exception of the Famas and AUG, which are over the top.

 

The last time I played with Chode, which is a while ago, he consistently got 2.5 or higher KDR with his SMGs, and he pretty much uses RF on all his SMGs. Playing within range is key, which is why I pretty much treat it as a shotgun. But yeah, if you try to pick someone off at midrange with RF, you aren't using it right. Both grip and RF have their purposes.

 

noob,

Why do you prefer the 74u RF over the MP5 RF. For me, it doesn't really matter, because when I use RF, I am on shotgun-mode. At least the 74u has a faster reload time with SA. But yeah, I use RF on all of my SMG classes.

 

Also, the Skorpion was obviously meant for hardcore mode. Even in CoD4, it was meant for hardcore mode. Actually, most of the obscure weapons in CoD4, such as the SAW, G3, G36C, M21, etc, were meant for hardcore action.

 

TMRaven,

Without stopping power, the raw numbers say that most of the power smgs would still kill faster than most of the power assault rifles purely due to faster firing rate.

I am going to just answer that question, whether Raor agrees with me or not.

 

SMGs WERE meant to beat ARs up close, NOT equal. It is just like how ARs were meant to beat SMGs at mid range, and hang at close range.

 

Looking at the CoD4 stats makes it ever so obvious.

 

MP5: 800 RPM, 40/20

AK-47: 700 RPM, 40/30

MP5 beats the AK by pure ROF at CQ. AK beats MP5 with min damage, as well as maintaining the 40 damage at longer range.

 

P90: 925 RPM, 30/20

M4: 855 RPM, 30/20

P90 beats the M4 by pure ROF at CQ. M4 beats P90 with lower recoil, as well as maintaining the 30 damage at longer range.

 

Now lets see what BOPS did.

74u: 750 RPM, 40/20

47: 750 RPM, 40/30

The 47 matches the 74u in CQ and beats it at mid range. The only redeaming value that the 74u has is a faster ADS and run speed, and lower center speed. Unless you put on RF of course, then it will beat the AK in CQ. But you shouln't need an attachment to do that. The 74u also has better hip fire. But who cares about hipfire with SoH? This is why I think that the 74u is overrated. In my opinion, lowering the 74u ROF and upgrading the 47 ROF was a dumb idea, but not the worst. That will be next.

 

Spectre: 937.5 RPM, 30/20

Famas: 937.5 RPM, 35/25

This has to be on of the dumbest, if not the dumbest, move that TA did. The Famas does not match the Spectre, it outright beats it in every single possible way, you know, except for the obvious SMG stuff (ADS speed, etc). In fact, it even beat the 74u. But you know this already, which is why you called it a pseudo-SMG in the first place.

 

If my tone feels angry, it is not towards you.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Wong

[Mom]

Don't get me wrong, I also feel the famas is the best weapon in Black Ops (which is why I love using it!), although everybody seems to focus all their overpowered hate for the 74u.

 

I guess our balancing approaches differ fundamentally in that I want the smgs buffed while you want the assault rifles weakened.

[Rachis]

Here's how I see things.

 

You can play the whole balance game two ways. We could just not move on and start buffing everything to stopping power levels so we see the two shot kill again. What this does is make recoil not quite as much of a problem because then we'd see 2-3 round kills again. Range would be a lot easier. Assault rifles would have a better feel at all ranges and smg's would start performing like we know they should in close range.

 

The other card is just bring up the smg's to where they belong. In order to do that you have to bump smg damage appropriately and lessen famas/aug rof to mid-high 800's. If the assault rifle balance felt off with that change then you can always put down the other assault rifle rof's as well and then they would perform more predictably at range. If an overall rof drop were to be made for assault rifles I would think you would have to do the same for smg's as well though.

 

The reason why balancing everything right now would be so tricky is because the recoil as it is now plays the largest role of all. The recoil is why assault rifles struggle at range. It's why the rapid fire makes no sense. It's why the overall killpower of the game just feels down compared to other call of duty titles. It's also a part of the reason why a lot of people believe hit detection is as bad as it is. Granted there is a hit detection problem, but it gets blown out of proportion when the weapons aren't very accurate relative to how well you are shooting. I expect the famas to miss rounds when I put them downrange. I do not expect me to have to fire half a mag at people when my aim is spot on. With an accuracy of over 21% I know I'm not flat out missing people all the time.

 

[edit] Also...if you're gonna run an smg with rf and play like a shotgun...use a damn shotgun. Strange idea I know! Oh right...shotguns fucking blow in this game. Guess treyarch did that on purpose so they could have an excuse to throw rf in as an attachment.

 

 

 

I feel there's more hate towards the 74u because it makes it almost pointless to run any other smg. This means you are going to see it a lot. People tend to hate what they see all the time. Assault rifles being as balanced as they are to each other is going to keep them out of the spotlight. I'm not saying it's ok that assault rifles are the best weapons in the game, but it stands to reason that anyone of them is going to be damn good. Assault rifles have always and will always be the some of the stronger weapons in call of duty. Assault rifles will be the strongest weapons in the game as long as smg's are as underpowered as they are. Most of them are 5 hit kills outside of their range and their range is pretty terrible. If max damages don't get changed I think at least minimum damages should. 5 shot kills have always been pretty ridiculous and especially so when the 2 shot kill was a mainstay of the game.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Wrenchis

[Wong]

I guess my idea of balance and the what you guys see as balance is different. Not saying they are wrong, just different.

 

Also...if you're gonna run an smg with rf and play like a shotgun...use a damn shotgun. Strange idea I know!

Isn't it like me saying:

Also...if you're gonna run an smg with grip and play like a assault rifle...use a damn assault rifle. Strange idea I know!

 

Of course not. What I am saying is keep your engagements up close. And unlike a shotgun, it has more CQ range. So it is actually more versatile because I do not have to be in their face to pull a kill. Also, in MW2, the UMP+RF+SP was awesome. It was basically the CoD4 MP5 with a minimum damage boost.

 

Lastly, I think you guys are overstating the recoil of RF. Even some "pros" use it.

Of course, he is using the 74u. But he pretty much did what you were suppose to with RF. While grip is the popular attachment, the RF also has its own niche following.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Wong

[Rachis]

The problem with you saying that about the 74u with a grip is the fact that the grip gives the 74u a better chance of survival at all of it's ranges. The same can't be said for rf.

 

He did what he was supposed to considering he was using an smg. He didn't do anything special with it just because rf was equipped and the rf didn't help him win any battles. Everything he got into he could've won originally. He was too quick to need rf to save him and since he usually had the first shot any 937 rof weapons in there weren't going to beat him. The merit behind 937 rof weapons is that once they hit they will pound you out for the win. You won't be able to fight back cuz you're getting bounced around quicker than you can put your rounds out. If the slower weapon hits first though it's not going to matter because you've already got a two round advantage. There would have to be a player mistake involved to lose that.

 

I'm not convinced that rf does anything but waste ammo. That guy spent a lot and he didn't get a couple midrange kills that he attempted and might have gotten if he wasn't running rf.

Edited January 1, 2011 by Wrenchis

[Wong]

The 74u with RF is strong though, IMO. Stronger than grip, no, just different. It is not like RF raises the recoil stats. The extra recoil comes from the extra ROF. That's like saying the AUG is bad compared to the 47 because it has higher ROF with the same recoil stats, or that the 47 would have been better than the AUG if it had a better center speed (because all the Grip does is add 100 or 200 on to the center speed, depending on the weapon). At least that is how I see it.

 

The RF pretty much turns the 74u into a MPL with 40 damage. (the difference being 937.5 RPM vs. 1000 RPM)

 

I mean, yes, in CoD4, I agree. Double tap was a waste of perk because of Stopping Power pretty much does the same thing without the downfalls. In this game, there is no SP.

 

Eh, I will just agree to disagree.

 

Btw, in the video, he did win two gun fights from being shot first. They are at 3:02 and 7:30. It could also be lag or bad shots of his opponent, but he did win. Meh, whatever, I am tired of debating. lol

Edited January 1, 2011 by Wong

[Rachis]

I can agree with all of that except for your aug/47 comparison because it's false. The 74u was designed to run with it's current recoil. It's new recoil is made worse due to the fact it's firing faster than it was designed. It's worse than the difference between the aug/47.

 

It being strong just really isn't a good enough reason to use it. It has a negative to go with. Grip doesn't. End of story.

[Wong]

Oh, found this on my hard drive that I meant to post while ago but never did (well, obviously).

 

Topic: How SP was meant to be in this game and was sloppily taken out.

 

1) Famas and AUG

Currently, this gun just beats all the ARs and SMGs in CQ. But what if SP was in this game?

Spectre: 937.5 RPM, 42/28

Famas: 937.5 RPM, 49/35

Commando: 750 RPM, 56/42

Now this makes much more sense. Much like the 74u and 47, the Spectre and Famas now both kill with three shots at the same ROF. Also, the Famas and Commando are balanced much like the SMGs, where the min damage are basically the same (both 3SK), and the CQ encounter is strictly based on the preference of higher ROF or higher damage. Now the Famas acts much like CoD4 M4 with higher recoil, ROF, and min damage.

 

2) G11

There is really no reason to use the M16 because the G11 just beats it in turms of recoil and ROF. The only thing that the M16 has is the slighty longer damage drop. In practice, it doesn't make a difference. But what if SP was in this game? The M16 now can kill in two shots at close-mid range for high recoil and lower ROF. The G11 is a 3SK at all ranges. While the M16 has an advantage up close, the G11 still has the advantage at long range. Since the G11 burst is so tight, it might be a one burst kill anyways, so both are worth using.

 

3) PSG-1

This basically proves that SP was taken out hastely. Before the patch, it was basically a carbon copy of the 50 Cal with a five ammo cap. In other words, it has a 1.1 damage multiplier at the stomach, which is completely useless. In fact, before the patch, it was the worst of the sniper rifles. After the patch, when they added in the 1.5 damage multipler to the stomach, it is now top tier sniper rifle in core, along with the L96A1.

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

i like the MP5k RF better because the recoil feels the same with and without it (IMO)

when i put RF on the 74u it feels like a full auto M14

and i have the habit of using ADS more than hip with an SMG. not to say i wont use hipfire at all, but its a habit to pull up that ADS

plus, im kinda tired of the 74u. makes things so uneventful and not exciting (same with the FAMAS/AUG)

i kinda use shotguns more frequently than i use SMGs too

 

also, G11 is top tier fo sho

48 rd mags and faster TTK* than the famas at mid-close, given 100% accuracy (and its pretty damn accurate)

 

EDIT: *at least i think. whats the ROF of the burst? its higher than 937.5 rpm, right?

Edited January 1, 2011 by noob

[Wong]

Here is a little trivia. The M16 in CoD4 has the same ROF as the P90 (925 RPM) with a .2 second delay. Same hold true for BOPS, minus the P90.

 

M16: 937.5 RPM with .2 second delay after every burst ... which averages out to 450 RPM.

G11: 1250 RPM with .2 second delay after every burst ... which averages out to 525 RPM.

 

937.5/.75 = 1250

G11 is the M16 with RF.

 

Oh god, I just woke up and thought it was 7 AM. It is only 4:20 AM.

[Shirtless Crackhead]

Yeah I've never quite got rapid fire or double tap either. I tried both double tap on cod4's M60 and rapid fire on black ops' ak74u but I just don't like it. I know it's all preference however. The fact that a good amount of people like grip over rapid fire on ak74u means they can cope with the gun killing slower than famas/aug in cqc and would rather have the slightly better hip fire and sprinting speed.

 

Now I see where you're going with trying to compare cod4 without stopping power vs black ops, Raor. I do wanna ask one thing, though.

 

Without stopping power, the raw numbers say that most of the power smgs would still kill faster than most of the power assault rifles purely due to faster firing rate. Why is the thought of providing 35/20 to some of the smgs a bad idea? It would make some of the smgs very potent in close range, like they're supposed to be. Only downside I could think of would be less use for a couple of the shotguns, but perhaps those could use a slight buff as well. Or is it do you think the smgs should be able to kill in 3 shots as well, but have a slightly lower rof like 850 compared to 927? (That would apply to famas/aug as well, though I think we all like the idea of one of those two being an M4/ACR)

 

Double Tap is WAY better than Rapid Fire, as it costs a perk, not an attachment, leaving it hard to use Grip+RF (which is broken, because you get damage and no default (making Warlord into a psuedo-stopping power for SMG's) Double Tap makes them deal with recoil; I'm also not a fan of SMG grips, but I think if the setup could be worked out where Grip's and GL's and stuff take your Equipment slot, it would be balanced.

 

35/20 to some of them, well that's the same as 40/20 basically, you'd have to tune those range adjustments perfectly to create any balance. In CoD4 what the AR's had was range, the M4's 30-20 dmg at 850rpm did really compete with the MP5's 800rpm, when you consider the damage spreads.

 

But, the MP5 in CoD4 didn't come with grips, rapid fire attachments, extended mags, etc.. etc..

 

And it certainly didn't have the AK-74u with dual mags to compete with, the SMG's where designed as rushing weapons, they had alot of power at close range, made shorter by suppressors.

 

So yeah, 9mm weapons where more "powerful" in CQB that the AR's, but by design they should be, I'm tired of getting raped by 35 close damage, 900+rpm AR's when I have an SMG and Steady Aim, it's ridiculous.

 

The SMG's should be more dangerous at close range than the AR's, but at the same stroke, the AR's should be effective at range, and the SMG's should have to deal with recoil and damage drops.

 

This is all aspect to ideas in my head, that don't actually exist.

Edited January 1, 2011 by DangerWorldWide

[Mom]

No, the ranges are pretty much the same as they were in cod4. Rachis had it right, the major difference in feel is the recoil-- which all guns collectively have more than they do in the infinity ward games. The guns seem to have more idle sway too, so burst firing isn't quite as effective. I don't think the imbalance would be as much as you think. The range already feels so short on the black ops smgs that using rapid fire and/or suppressor on any smg outside of 10m feels like you're trying to shoot through a last stand juggernaut user. I also agree with him that rapid fire is not a power attachment for the ak74u-- it's the grip. I've personally been able to stand more of a chance vs cqc famas/aug users while hip firing with grip than I did with hip firing using rapid fire. I've tried grip+rapid fire on ak74u too, but it doesn't stand out quite like grip alone plus any other slot 2 perk.

 

40/20 is in effect the same as 35/20, in that they both require 3 at close range to kill and 5 at range to kill, but I said a couple times already that the 40 damage will kill noticeably faster if they're already hurt or if you headshot them. It's what makes the crowd control of the ak47 and commando so great, as well as ak74u (that and the slower rate of fire). That would allow for some play between assault rifles and smgs at close range damage races in which the assault rifle still has a chance to win based on his aim or your damage, it wouldn't make the 35/20 937rpm smgs too dominate I don't think. Because of not having 40 damage bullets, I personally have never had great success with the famas outside of 1v1 situations (I always get murdered while using it if I have to shoot a crowd of people).

 

As far as lowering some of the recoil on the assault rifles, maybe. I do agree that either famas or aug needs to be turned into 30/20 with almost no recoil. The ak47 already doesn't recoil that great, in fact it only recoils upward and never to the side. Perhaps giving the ak47 and commando a slight bit faster centering speed for better bursts would be good.

Edited January 1, 2011 by TMRaven

[Wong]

I don't know what you and Rachis are talking about. The MP5, AK47, and PSG1 (50 Cal), for example, feels exactly the same as they did in CoD4. If anything, the 47 in BOPS is more accurate because it has no idle sway, compared to 47 in CoD4, where is did have idle sway. In fact, all automatic ARs in CoD4 had idle sway. It was one of the advantages that CoD4 LMGs had against ARs at long range, along with grip. LMGs can tap against snipers and hit at the same exact spot while automatic ARs can't. In MW2, IW took out idle sway for all ARs with the exception of the 47 when you put attachments on it. TA followed that tradition in BOPS.

 

The only thing I noticed from TA games (I played WaW, BOPS) and IW (CoD2, CoD4, MW2) is that the movements of IW games feels much lighter and graphics looks much more refined, while TA games feels much more heavy.

[Mom]

Do you get a feeling of idle sway with commando but none on the ak47? That's what I feel a bit. And yeah the ak47 in black ops is way more accurate than it is in cod4.