Summer Project: Retrofitting FA

[█␢█]

Alright so I figured I'd take a shot at this, since the thought has been around for a while and I've really got nothing to do at least until SC2 is released. Pretty much, the premise is to turn FA into Virtual-On where you have pre-set AC's to choose from. These pre-sets would be based off of prevalent archetypes and play styles, and if all goes well some gimmicky AC's might appear as well if I can find a way to keep it balanced. Hopefully this little project will bring back some life for FA before AC5 makes its appearance while keeping my boredom stemmed for the remainder of the summer.

 

Now I come to you all to see who would be interested in helping with the various tasks along the way (such as testing the AC's for balance, coming up with ideas for styles, etc.) or to see if this is even a good idea to go through with in the first place. Seeing as it's in the very infancy, if you'd like to help, just spew out some AC's you'd like to see as a pre-set, and we'll see how everything turns out from there. I'll probably try to make AC's over the next two weekends to be ready for testing.

 

(First batch of test ACs are up, ditched most of these archetypes)

What I've Thought of So Far

• LW (bipedal; high speed, ground-based): Machine gun, shot gun, pistol hangars, maybe a low ammo missile pack with extensions, AA
  
• LW (bipedal; high speed, ground-based): High-laser rifle, high ammo missile back with extensions, no AA
  
• LW (bipedal; average speed, aerial-based): Sniper rifle, laser rifle, mediocre missile back, no AA
  
• MW (bipedal; average all-around-er): Rifle, sniper rifle, high ammo missile pack, no AA
  
• MW(bipedal; higher-than-average speed, ground-based): Rifle, machine gun, pistol hangars mediocre missile pack with extensions, AA
  
• MW(bipedal; average speed, balanced defense): Rifle, sniper rifle, high-laser cannon, no AA
  
• HW(bipedal; slow speed, ballistic-defense based): Rifle, railgun, sniper cannon, higher-tier missile pack, flares, no AA
  
• HW(tank; slow speed, ballistic-defense based): Railgun, spread bazooka, high-tier missile back, sniper cannon, flares, DR hangars, no AA
  

Potential Gimmick ACs

• Plasma rifle, machine gun, slug gun, AA combination
  
• Kojima
  
• AS missiles
  
• OB jousters
  

----------

 

Edit 6/21/10: First 3 pre-sets to test

Edited June 22, 2010 by NlJl

[Harakiri Tiger]

You could even base some tournaments on this setup. It would certainly draw some attention to the concept, which may lead to more ideas and so on. I'm about to go eat somewhere tho! I'll be back with some comments on the Gimmick bots later tonight.

[Exorcet]

No surprise here, but I'd like to see FA's current metagame utterly shunned. LS's low boost power/limited FRS idea combined with this, etc. By being careful with the pre-designed AC's, it could work, thought I bet it will need tweaking.

 

So far, you're only going by playstyle. This is a new idea so it's not bad place to start, but I'd like to try some other things. For example, by lowering the overall tier level of AC's, we could try something like running a 0 ENO FRS design that would dominate in short battle, but would not be well suited for constant fighting (basically taking a VIRTUE EN weapon design to the extreme).

 

That's what I came up with in 10 minutes.

[█␢█]

Yeah, I guess I forgot to mention it, but I didn't intend for these pre-sets to be top-of-the-line ACs. For the sake of balance, the pre-sets are going to be of a lower tier.

[Artdeux]

Lightweight with Bazookas.

 

You know what I'm talking about.

[SUMERIAN BLOOD GOD]

W-W-W-Wagner?

[Taurus]

^

^

^

from Front Mission4?

(I'll try out for create something that you'd prefer /b/)

[Falco]

All AC's run Agryros generator.

[Harakiri Tiger]

Anyway, now that I'm back I'll make my comment on those gimmick bots. The only way to make them work is to work on them first, then base the other bots power off of the gimmick bots. Any other way will eithe result in an excessive amount of work or imbalanced play. Also, when balacing you need to take into account the levels the bots will be used on. Design them for a specific level if you want to maintain the balance.

 

Hope that helps a bit.

[Taurus]

What I've Thought of So Far

• LW (bipedal; high speed, ground-based): Machine gun, shot gun, pistol hangars, maybe a low ammo missile pack with extensions, AA
  
• LW (bipedal; high speed, ground-based): High-laser rifle, high ammo missile back with extensions, no AA
  
• LW (bipedal; average speed, aerial-based): Sniper rifle, laser rifle, mediocre missile back, no AA
  
• MW (bipedal; average all-around-er): Rifle, sniper rifle, high ammo missile pack, no AA
  
• MW(bipedal; higher-than-average speed, ground-based): Rifle, machine gun, pistol hangars mediocre missile pack with extensions, AA
  
• MW(bipedal; average speed, balanced defense): Rifle, sniper rifle, high-laser cannon, no AA
  
• HW(bipedal; slow speed, ballistic-defense based): Rifle, railgun, sniper cannon, higher-tier missile pack, flares, no AA
  
• HW(tank; slow speed, ballistic-defense based): Railgun, spread bazooka, high-tier missile back, sniper cannon, flares, DR hangars, no AA

I'll try to made with followed the solution one-by-one.

[█␢█]

Oh. Wait.

 

I'll make the first prototypes, don't worry about that. I just need people to test and improve upon them.

[Harakiri Tiger]

Just remember you can't force the mechanics into place. You still have to take them into account when designing these bots and designs towards them a bit. If you try to turn a game that's all about running and dodging into something else it'll quickly lose its entertainment value. I guess what I'm saying is that you gotta keep that cheesy novelty feel out of it.

[█␢█]

Alright, well all things considered, I have the first batch of "standard play" ACs. I cut down from that list of 8 AC down to 3. These are just meant to be very conventional and plain as far as play style goes. There is a fair amount of AP chipping and damage racing involved with the four. By no means are they competitive tier, so don't comment on that, but instead how to make each of them more balanced in regards to the others as well as future AC's that will be using grenades, high lasers, and the like.

 

AC-01¹

 

 

Head|Core|Arms|Legs

SOLUH-HEAD|SOLUH-CORE|SOLUH-ARMS|LG-LAHIRE

FCS|Gen

INBLUE|GN-SOBRERO

Main|Back|Side|OB

DUSKAROR-CORB|ARGYROS/B|EKHAZAR-ARMB|ARGYROS/AO

R Arm|L Arm|R Back|L Back|Shoulders

MBURUCUYA|01-HITMAN|N/A|N/A|N/A

R Hangar|L Hangar

LARE|LARE

Tunes

0/0/0/0

50/50/0/0

50/0/0/0

0/0/0/0

50/0/0/0

50/0/50/0

0/50/42/50

Stabilizers

Core R Lower: 03-AALIYAH/CLS1

Core L Lower: 03-AALIYAH/CLS1 (

0,-8) Significant Numbers

AP: 32161

Ballistic Defense: 5967

Energy Defense: 5297

PA Capability: 5299

Energy Recovery: 21285

 

 

AC-02¹

 

 

Head|Core|Arms|Legs HD-HOGIRE|CR-LANCEL|AM-LANCEL|063AN04 FCS|Gen EKHAZAR-FCS|GN-JUDITH Main|Back|Side|OB EKHAZAR-CORB|LB-LAHIRE|AB-HOGIRE|LINSTANT/O R Arm|L Arm|R Back|L Back|Shoulders GAN02-NSS-WR|GAN01-SS-WB²|N/A|DEARBORN03|N/A R Hangar|L Hangar N/A|N/A Tunes 0/0/0/0 50/0/50/0 50/0/50/0 0/0/0/0 0/0/0/0 0/0/0/0 0/0/0/50 Stabilizers Core R Lower: GAN01-SS-CLS0 Legs Back: GAN01-SS-LBS0 (-1,0) Significant Numbers AP: 40333 Ballistic Defense: 9289 Energy Defense: 7870 PA Capability: 7201 Energy Recovery: 20113

 

AC-03¹

 

 

Head|Core|Arms|Legs GAN02-NSS-H|GAN01-SS-C|HILBERT-G7A|HILBERT-G7L FCS|Gen 047AN05|EKHAZAR-GEN Main|Back|Side|OB CB-JUDITH|LB-LAHIRE|SB128-SCHEDAR|KB-JUDITH R Arm|L Arm|R Back|L Back|Shoulders 051ANNR|RG03-KAPTEYN|PLATTE01³|049ANSC|GUYANDOTTE04 R Hangar|L Hangar N/A|N/A Tunes 7/16/0/0 50/0/50/0 50/50/0/0 0/0/0/0 0/0/0/0 0/50/50/0 0/50/0/0 Stabilizers None (-4,-4) Significant Numbers AP: 46974 Ballistic Defense: 11404 Energy Defense: 8369 PA Capability: 6671 Energy Recovery: 19697

 

---------- ¹Just some notable trends:

• "Chipping" and constant rate of fire ballistic weapons in general. I wanted these to serve as a baseline for the other AC's I'll be making that favor more heavy-hitting weapons like grenades, bazookas, lasers, or kojima as a main source of damage. As a whole, I'm a little lost on how to balance the two. One one hand, if I make everything too slow, these heavy-hitters will be way too OP; yet just the opposite if it's too fast, we basically have FA again where these weapons are useless. So some help and testing here would be much appreciated.
• Favors ballistic defense over energy defense. This is to offer some sense of balance and offer purpose to the ACs that will be using EN weapons. One thing that will need fixing is how to make sure that one isn't too over(or under)powered.
• Bipedal legs. Until I can think of a balanced build for the other legs, I'll add those into the pool. The most obvious issues to work out with RJ's and quads is their affinity for annoying defensive play (highly evasive backpedaling with the former, hit-and-run attacks with the latter).

²As one of the more immediate concerns, I'm wondering if having a bazooka here would be too overpowered when fighting against heavier AC's, specifically AC-03 that doesn't have any sort of heavy-hitting answer to it. So I'd like input on this especially. ³Pretty much the same issue here. I'm conflicted between keeping the Platte missile or switching it to the MP-O203, but I'm not too sure if the latter would be too strong at these somewhat reduced speeds.

Edited February 14, 2016 by wktk

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

tested these all with chode. heres the matchups

 

MW > LW

MW =/< HW

MW = MW

 

LW > HW

LW < MW

LW = LW

 

HW >/= MW

HW < LW

HW = HW

 

 

so far, its a big game of rock-paper-scissors, only the HW is crap itself.

HW does get a notable edge vs the MW since it has flares, and zook/rifle alone is not quite enough to take out an HW

 

i think the ACs need to be more well-rounded so matchups arent strictly"you win because i have a LW and you have a MW."

 

if you put argyros back boosters on most of the ACs (especially heavy weapon ACs) it would weaken the power of backpedalling. the MW dominates the LW with the BP zook, since any immediate AP lead can be easily taken away instantly with the zook.

 

one small idea would be to reverse the general thought of what weapons are used on what acs. for example, using heavy weapons on LW ACs and light-mid weapons on HW may make for something interesting and less FA-like (but the problems with that, off the top of my head, is that LWs would be superior at hit-and-run while HWs may be hard to pilot at closer ranges with their low turn-speeds.)

 

EDIT: mixed up HW and MW somewhere

Edited June 22, 2010 by noob

[Tsuranga]

So the goal is to use ac's that are all on the same level?

[█␢█]

Yeah, pretty much. Somewhat like a fighting game.

[Tsuranga]

sounds good, I'm down to play a bit. so long as I can use one of my sexy base frames. and choose guns that look good.

[█␢█]

I can try to work aesthetics in eventually! Unless your frame is pretty low tier.

 

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

i can do paint

[Taurus]

I can do test. (but must be tonight, from my site)

[Exorcet]

• Bipedal legs. Until I can think of a balanced build for the other legs, I'll add those into the pool. The most obvious issues to work out with RJ's and quads is their affinity for annoying defensive play (highly evasive backpedaling with the former, hit-and-run attacks with the latter).
  

 

Try overweighting, if that proves too crippling, perhaps it could be alleviated with FRS. BTW, I actually just realized I can't test anything. I don't have FA 360 anymore and my PS3 is bricked while my brother refuses to put FA in his PS3 because of freezing.

 

³Pretty much the same issue here. I'm conflicted between keeping the Platte missile or switching it to the MP-O203, but I'm not too sure if the latter would be too strong at these somewhat reduced speeds.

 

The way I see it 203 is great because every AC in FA goes 70,000 miles with a QB, leaving the missile plenty of room to turn, going slow might make it less deadly maybe. But the best thing to do is test.

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

203 WOULD BE OVERKILL WITH THE HIGHER DRAIN AND SLOWER SPEEDS YOU ARE TRYING TO ACHIEVE. THEY MAY BE EASIER TO DODGE WITH NORMAL ACS BUT THESE ARENT NORMAL ACS

[Taurus]

good work unnormal ACs. but AC-03 was too heavy for me.

 

I'll try out to re-balanced them. (don't worry, this is my favorite hobby =D)