ACs are 5 meters tall?

[Puddiing]

How would YAO MING fit in there lols? Wanzers how many meters?

 

Optimus will be like i can PAWN you now since your shorter than me now.

 

its the size of a terrace house. Provide good camouflage.

 

Wanzer is trying to follow AC and AC is trying to follow Wanzer.

 

I guess now a battalion of tanks can take down ACs. Weeee

[Liarbird]

Armored Cores have been 10 meters in the past

 

Ac5 they are, indeed, 5 meters. More real robot than the super robot they were... however, they are still technically walking balls of GUN.

[Griffon]

More real robot than the super robot they were...

ACs were never "super".

 

But yeah, ACs are about Wanzer size now, except still with AC performance. Doesn't seem so bad, really. And if it means tanks and helis will put up a fight, all for the better, I say.

Speaking of, I'd like to see them handle jets in a more realistic way. Instead of having them be faster helicopters like in previous games, jets should really be more like that one mission in Sl where you have to dodge the Satellite Cannon. In missions with enemy air support, the jets scream overhead every few minutes making attack runs at you and all you can do is try to not get hit while you take out the objective.

[Mom]

I dunno being a last raven junky, ac4 and acfa ACs seem pretty super and lame to me.

[Griffon]

I dunno being a last raven junky, ac4 and acfa ACs seem pretty super and lame to me.

They were powerful, sure. But from my understanding, the real/super distinction isn't how powerful a mech is, but how it's handled. Even crazy powerful mechs like Orbital Frames are considered "real" opposed to "super". From what I understand, the Super Robot distinction is that the pilot/mech are handled in a fashion similar to a super hero, like Getter, Mazinger Z, Voltron, etc, opposed to actual weapons of war.

[Mom]

I don't wanna get into all the semantics and technicalities about robot manga/anime/game snobbery because I'm not too much of a robot fan myself, but all I know is that ac4/acfa ACs are super powerful and lame compared to true AC. AC5 is supposedly supposed to be a step down from those two games.

 

I think that is what Slaneesh was trying to get at there, that From Software is toning down the abilities of the ACs from the previous games to be more realistic, and not trying to be technical and referring to japanese manga culture. Then again I don't really put it past any AC fan to be a weeaboo so I can't be sure.

[Griffon]

I don't wanna get into all the semantics and technicalities about robot manga/anime/game snobbery because I'm not too much of a robot fan myself, but all I know is that ac4/acfa ACs are super powerful and lame compared to true AC. AC5 is supposedly supposed to be a step down from those two games.

 

Well that's true, yeah. And a welcome change.

 

 

Then again I don't really put it past any AC fan to be a weeaboo so I can't be sure

Ouch. That cut me, man. Cut me deep.

[Mom]

No I was referring to Slaanesh.

[Terminator98]

So besides TM's obvious self-proclaimed hate for AC...

 

ACs reaching 5 meters will help with the "realism" of the game, even though I would say PS2 era ACs were pretty realist (save for the issue of planes going at subsonic speeds... unless THESE WERE HARRIERS... ).

Planes should be destroyable (go watch AC:SL intro), but very hard to hit (you'd only have a lock of about 2 seconds, as they're very fast, unless that is you have an ND FCS that can target them while they're still far away).

 

Also, smaller robots does not mean less powerful. In Gundam, as the series progressed, Mechs would become SMALLER and would be considered more powerful than their larger counterparts.

Coming to think of it, where are all the internals + the cockpit in a 5 meter tall machine of death that has boosters and guns?

 

To come back to the difference between Super and Real Robots:

 

- Super Robots are powered via ways that are NOT scientific or are kinda, "Superhero based". Yeah, for example, Robots that are mainly killing stuff by doing flashy karateka stuff or doing kamehameha wannabes that can blow up the universe.

 

- Real Robots are the attempt to merge robots, science and reality. They can sometimes get iffy, but there is theoretically always a RATIONAL or semi-rational way of explaining their abilities. (Most of the time, real robots use guns, are powered by a generator, don't call out their attacks, and are used in military plots)

 

Armored Core falls in the "real robot" category. Even the AC4 anf FA fall in the "real robot" category. But you see, there are many scales for Real Robots, those that are "rea" real robots and those that are borderline super robots. To illustrate my example, we can call the Macross Valkyries or the U.C generation gundams real robots. Wing Gundams also fit that qualification, so do most of the SEED mechas and the 00 Mechas. HOWEVER, some border on the line of becoming Super Robots. Codifiers for this genre are the Strike Freedom and the 00 Gundam, all having haxor powerz and being able to take entire ARMADAS alone. (Which NEXTs can pretty much do)

 

A NEXT is to a NORMAL or Old-gen AC what Strike Freedom is to the Strike.

[Pendragon]

One thing that did put me off abotu AC4 and ACFA was how "super robot" the mechs felt.

 

They were great, don't get me wrong, but I felt like I was watching an episode of Gundam, which is not a good thing.

 

It's good FROM is toning down the mechs, so they aren't god mode "powered by friendship" generic animu mechs.

[Liarbird]

I am a proud weaboo.

[Harakiri Tiger]

The advantage of five meter high AC's isn't in the story. It's in the engine.

 

AC tries to render distances/buildings in a slightly realistic relative manner. Not perfect, but realistic. That means 10-15m tall AC's are a nuisance to work with. They can't interract with terrain because very little terrain is really going to be big enough to fit an AC easily. They'll either be too large for a setting or too small. Map sizes get very large if you want to allow realistic snipers, for example, to compensate for having sniper rifles or they feel scrunched up and tight if they try to keep the maps smaller since weapons try to maintain relativistic ranges. AC's are 10 meters tall and a sniper rifle only shoots 100 meters, what? That wouldn't make sense, so a small map with normal full range snipers suddenly makes a sniper feel more like a bazooka/rifle hybrid rather than a sniper.

 

Nothing matches up in a workable sense. You're stuck with AC vs AC or bust cuz anything else not only looks silly, but just doesn't really work. AC vs Arms Fort or Giant MT? Really? That's cool for the anime fan, but it's completely unauthentic. That's like a frigate attacking a battleship on the ocean and expecting a win. It's fun and neat, but it loses the veritability that keeps people tied to the game strongly.

 

By shrinking AC height from 10 meters down to about 5 meters you gain the ability to fit them into all kinds of settings. You no longer need to have doors in that weapons facility that are 15 meters tall. Why were they 15 meters tall? So your AC could fit. If they had been smart facility designers they woulda made them 8 meters tall. Just tall enough to make every AC in the game bump its head on the ceiling and get stuck at the door like a toy RC car. A hallway would have been an AC's greatest enemy. 5 meters = 15 feet. 15 feet is about the height of an average Semi. AC's now can fit under bridges, inside facilities, in normal width city streets, on top of buildings (without crushing holes in them), in some McDonalds drive-thru's, and more.

 

The other advantage of shrinking AC's is you're no longer stuck with AC vs AC or bust settings. Tanks/Hellicopters/Planes/MTs/Stationary Weapon Batteries/Jeeps/Vans with Terrorists/Ice Cream Stands/Etc are all viable opponents. You don't need to rely on a dumbed down Giant MT or Arms Fort to provide a challenge. Instead an AC can be the big threat enemy (boss) again and most missions can just involve blowing up random junk, cuz random junk can be a challenge. Really big enemies, like a giant MT, can feel far more threatening this way if you do decide to incorporate them.

 

A bigger problem is how will they incorporate and handle the new AC height relative to AC power. As it stands, it sounds like AC's will still be ludicriously powerful. It's FROM SOFTWARE, though. Best not to expect too much.

[Liarbird]

Hence me saying earlier: Walking balls of GUN

 

Just more adaptable walking balls of GUN

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

(save for the issue of planes going at subsonic speeds... unless THESE WERE HARRIERS... ).

 

Wait, what? Are you saying planes don't fly at subsonic speeds?

 

Pretty much anytime you fly commercially it's subsonic. Bombers and stuff do too.

 

Doods in World War 1 were definitely not dogfighting at above sonic speed. Although that'd be amazing and very DBZ-like.

[Mom]

So besides TM's obvious self-proclaimed hate for AC...

 

AC4/ACFA are not the only AC games.

[13th Knight]

I agree with Niji that the 5-meter AC is far more realistic than having one that's 15 meters tall. I found it incredibly ridiculous in Last Raven to see little midgets running around and the ACs an obscenely huge size.

 

Having a 15-foot tall AC is PERFECT because it allows the tactical possibilities to expand. An AC can now hide in an urban environment and can easily sneak around opponents. It'd be even better if they added extensions again like the CROW, allowing you to hide amidst crazy ECM noise.

 

Maybe they'll enable the buildings to prevent radar detection at low altitudes, like sea-level. That would prove it even more difficult to track an enemy AC.

[Tsuranga]

They're gunna be patlabor size yo, but with thrusters and guns.

If any of you haven't seen it yet you should watch patlabor, and you'll see just how awesome a 5meter mech can be. Code geass mechs are also about 5m. At this height ac's will be more like exoskeletons than giant robots, which is cool cuz they really will interact with the environment better.

 

Also to quote yoda "size matters not"

Just cuz an ac is small does not mean it is weaker, they are just more Compact. if you can fit the same power attack and armor in a smaller size, that makes it much more maneuverable, and easier to deal with from a logistic POV; transportation, powering, storage, maintenance etc.

[Terminator98]

Wait, what? Are you saying planes don't fly at subsonic speeds?

 

Pretty much anytime you fly commercially it's subsonic. Bombers and stuff do too.

 

Doods in World War 1 were definitely not dogfighting at above sonic speed. Although that'd be amazing and very DBZ-like.

 

I know... but seeing the technology levels in Armored Core, I'd doubt that planes would fly THAT SLOW. They'd most likely do very high speed pasts, not these slow flybys we're used to.

(They're speed should be like OB speed)

Bombers are subsonic, sure, but they usually attack from a very high height to be immune to counter fire. (Unless they're a gunship)

 

 

 

AC4/ACFA are not the only AC games.

 

I knowz... But I thought you harbored some kind of general dissent for AC itself... perhaps it's my rusty memory. Pardon me if that's the case.

 

 

Also, 100% agreement with Niji!

[Griffon]

I know... but seeing the technology levels in Armored Core, I'd doubt that planes would fly THAT SLOW. They'd most likely do very high speed pasts, not these slow flybys we're used to.

(They're speed should be like OB speed)

A little off-topic, but subsonic is by no means slow. I could be completely wrong, but I don't even think planes would make attack runs at supersonic speeds. In-game they would still be OB speed or faster though. Instead of flying around the map, they'd have to make passes across it, and they would be VERY hard to shoot down.

[Terminator98]

Well, I know sub-sonic isn't slow... perhaps it was my way of putting my thoughts through.

What I actually meant is that the flybys the planes do in games like Last Raven or AC3 are way too slow...

They should be faster, much faster.

 

Like this

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

I know... but seeing the technology levels in Armored Core, I'd doubt that planes would fly THAT SLOW. They'd most likely do very high speed pasts, not these slow flybys we're used to.

(They're speed should be like OB speed)

Bombers are subsonic, sure, but they usually attack from a very high height to be immune to counter fire. (Unless they're a gunship)

 

OB is subsonic in AC3 era. AC4 era is when it got above sonic range. I went ahead and asked Owen what the top speed he ever saw in LR was, and it was 860 km/hr. That's like Mach .7. That's not even trans-sonic range.

 

Also, bombs don't necessarily need to be deployed from a high altitude. That's one reason you could fly high, but most bombers actually get really low for the drop-off of payload. It sounds like you're taking too simple an approach to even the basics of flight (and bombing things).

 

Oh, and to keep this on topic, the point of all this is I don't really mind the speed those planes were flying in game. Our boy Griffon already summed up that argument fairly well.

[Terminator98]

I know that OBs are subsonic in AC3, it's just that they're much faster than the speed at which planes pass by... Top speed is 876 in LR I think if I can recall correctly.

 

 

As for bombing, it was not necessarily bombs that might get dropped on ACs... more like Air to surface missiles, which are usually fired far away from retribution range...

Carpet Bombing is more when attacking a large force, and bombing an entire area to kill an AC might seem overkill... unless you want the AC really bad. People would instead use on highly effective air to surface missile and nuke the AC in one hit... the thing is, I do realize missiles are needed in tons to bring down an AC (well, teh way they are made anyways). Unless you give those aerial missiles the hitpower of a large AC missile.

[Barrettiel]

The advantage of five meter high AC's isn't in the story. It's in the engine.

 

AC tries to render distances/buildings in a slightly realistic relative manner. Not perfect, but realistic. That means 10-15m tall AC's are a nuisance to work with. They can't interract with terrain because very little terrain is really going to be big enough to fit an AC easily. They'll either be too large for a setting or too small. Map sizes get very large if you want to allow realistic snipers, for example, to compensate for having sniper rifles or they feel scrunched up and tight if they try to keep the maps smaller since weapons try to maintain relativistic ranges. AC's are 10 meters tall and a sniper rifle only shoots 100 meters, what? That wouldn't make sense, so a small map with normal full range snipers suddenly makes a sniper feel more like a bazooka/rifle hybrid rather than a sniper.

 

Nothing matches up in a workable sense. You're stuck with AC vs AC or bust cuz anything else not only looks silly, but just doesn't really work. AC vs Arms Fort or Giant MT? Really? That's cool for the anime fan, but it's completely unauthentic. That's like a frigate attacking a battleship on the ocean and expecting a win. It's fun and neat, but it loses the veritability that keeps people tied to the game strongly.

 

By shrinking AC height from 10 meters down to about 5 meters you gain the ability to fit them into all kinds of settings. You no longer need to have doors in that weapons facility that are 15 meters tall. Why were they 15 meters tall? So your AC could fit. If they had been smart facility designers they woulda made them 8 meters tall. Just tall enough to make every AC in the game bump its head on the ceiling and get stuck at the door like a toy RC car. A hallway would have been an AC's greatest enemy. 5 meters = 15 feet. 15 feet is about the height of an average Semi. AC's now can fit under bridges, inside facilities, in normal width city streets, on top of buildings (without crushing holes in them), in some McDonalds drive-thru's, and more.

 

The other advantage of shrinking AC's is you're no longer stuck with AC vs AC or bust settings. Tanks/Hellicopters/Planes/MTs/Stationary Weapon Batteries/Jeeps/Vans with Terrorists/Ice Cream Stands/Etc are all viable opponents. You don't need to rely on a dumbed down Giant MT or Arms Fort to provide a challenge. Instead an AC can be the big threat enemy (boss) again and most missions can just involve blowing up random junk, cuz random junk can be a challenge. Really big enemies, like a giant MT, can feel far more threatening this way if you do decide to incorporate them.

 

A bigger problem is how will they incorporate and handle the new AC height relative to AC power. As it stands, it sounds like AC's will still be ludicriously powerful. It's FROM SOFTWARE, though. Best not to expect too much.

 

This right here pretty much explains it all for me. Another great post from Niji. Haha =3 Werd

[Griffon]

Oh, and to keep this on topic, the point of all this is I don't really mind the speed those planes were flying in game. Our boy Griffon already summed up that argument fairly well.

Thank you, but I think I phrased my post badly, because I actually did mind the speed of AC3 jets. Way too slow. And granted it COULD be written off with "since the whole game takes place in Layered, you wouldn't want jets going too fast, lest they run out of room" but they're still too damn slow in subsequent games. I agree with Terminator, that handling planes like in the SL intro would be better. Something that every minute or so flies over the area faster than OB shooting missiles at you and then is gone in a few seconds, opposed to sluggishly hanging around the battlefield waiting to get shot.

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

Thank you, but I think I phrased my post badly, because I actually did mind the speed of AC3 jets. Way too slow. And granted it COULD be written off with "since the whole game takes place in Layered, you wouldn't want jets going too fast, lest they run out of room" but they're still too damn slow in subsequent games. I agree with Terminator, that handling planes like in the SL intro would be better. Something that every minute or so flies over the area faster than OB shooting missiles at you and then is gone in a few seconds, opposed to sluggishly hanging around the battlefield waiting to get shot.

 

Well I meant the part where you said something to the effect of, "they don't fly fast cuz it's a game," or at least I could have sworn you wrote that. I just re-read the post and I'm not sure where I got that from.

 

I'm putting words in your post!