AC:fA Twinkle-Toes

[Rogan]

AC: Twinkle-Toes

 

Frame:

 

Argyros/Lancel/Eklakh/Duskaror

 

Internals:

 

Judith/Linstant

 

Booster Line:

 

Aaliayh/Aaliyah/Latona/Rigel

 

Weapons:

 

NA/NA/Bismuth/Otogo/Musselshell

 

Stabilized: (+4,-18)

 

Tunes:

 

50 in En output, KP output, Lock Speed, Main QB, Turning, Core PA, Arm PA, Vertical Thrust

 

42 in En Cap

 

 

 

Analysis:

 

Ok, so this is a mid weight MG arm + nade quad. The idea is to use the weapon Arms, koji nuke and Assault armor to make sure your opponent has no PA while you blast then with grenades. You start off with a single Koji nuke joust or slingshot, then you drop it. (At this point your stability goes to 0,-13) If you break your opponents PA great, if they have flares you have other means. After that you pressure them with MG arms while picking grenade shots. If they recover their PA you hit them with Assault armor to break it again. It started off as a screw around design but seemed to be sound enough to make competitive.

 

 

 

Frame: This parts give you respectable PA and defenses to take a hit or two even if you blow your Assault armor. The tunes in PA help with grenades which are really the biggest issue this build faces. As it doesn't fly very well but then again it is a quad.

 

 

 

Internals: Linstant takes full advantage of the PA provided by the frame and means I can use my Assault armor at a moments notice. I found that with a quad I need to put tunes into capacity to keep up with their higher energy demands. Judith FCS was picked because I have a Koji nuke and it is my first means of attack.

 

 

 

Booster line: Really not beginner friendly. I took Aaliyah for vertical thrust both to help stay away from my opponents grenades and to help gain vertical advantage when firing my own. Aaliayh backs help with tracking people who fly over my head. QB backwards twice then rotate on the spot and you'll generally keep a bead on them. Holofernes sides are what I tend to use on quads.

 

 

 

Weapons: Strip PA so that you can use grenades well. That's all there is to this AC. The build is very straight forward. I have no idea why I put the flares on because I usually forget I have them. I wanted to put shock rockets here for more PA killing goodness but they don't fit with the Koji nuke. P-Marrow was what the first version of this build ran.

 

 

 

As I said I'm attempting to make this build competitive, thoughts?

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

tbh looks a little tad heavy to make the MG arms work

i would drop the whole bismuth idea and just go with dusk legs

 

swap out yasmin for something like gallatin or guyandotte, since yasmin doesnt do shit vs anything besides wheelings

 

dont waste your points in arm PA and put them into something else like normal foward boost speed or arm maneuverability

 

also, change your side boosters to latona or something less powerful if you plan on going foward

[Vincent210]

I think if you want to do a PA strip strategy, you would be happier using a combination of the MG Arms and Kamal Slug Gun on a frame stripped of as much extra weight as possible (a LW on Dusk Quads would be more preferable here), and having spread missiles of choice (along with relation missles if you so choose) to do massive damage. Use quad legs' advantages to the fullest. You need no flares because your sheer ground speed as well as the inherit obstacles in your comfort zone as a quad render missiles quite harmless towards you for the most part. Also, With the amount of turning speed you have, you can zoom right under/past someone's craft and QT to easily keep constant pressure on their blind spots. The only forseeable problem in this case would be aerial crafts that rarely fall into your domain, and even that is handleable. You can either use obstacles in the map (depending ON the map) to force the opponent to come to you, or you could take up a hit and run strategy and simply start doing random rushes at your opponent, Kamal and Eklakh blazing, and then dart off out of their range to prepare to do it all over again.

[█␢█]

You need no flares because your sheer ground speed as well as the inherit obstacles in your comfort zone as a quad render missiles quite harmless towards you for the most part.

I actually disagree that flares are most always unneeded on speedy bots. With defensive, fast ACs I completely agree with this statement because retreating is a very defensive tactic. However with anything offensive that both requires constant pressure (as in you cannot joust the weapon effectively) and cannot be used defensively to the same effectiveness, I dare say that flares are a necessity. What flares do for said AC using weapons with these criteria is that the allow the AC to apply pressure uninterrupted.

 

Imagine, for example, Rogan's AC without flares fighting another AC that has something like a Wheeling03. Rogan would approach that AC through a great deal of effort, taking a decent amount of damage on the way in. However, he would be able to return that damage with proper positioning and other CQ things in order for the machine guns to do the most damage as well as abusing the (most likely) low tracking ability of the opponent. Now say Rogan is a master at dodging the other AC's lock and just pours bullets into that AC, which in this case is considerably slower than he. Everything is going wonderfully. But oh no! The opposing AC manages to lock onto Rogan long enough to get a missile lock. With a missile such as Wheeling03, Rogan really only has two choices: He can either 1) run away from the missiles, negating the damage of the missiles or 2) ignore the missiles and continue to play, assuming that such an occurrence is rare and that he will be able to make up lost ground in the AP race.

 

Now, the problem with the first option is that Rogan has to start at square one again, risking damage on the way in as well as risking that he may not get into his money spot again. The problem with the second option is that missiles have a ridiculously high DPS and allowing for all that potential damage to be translated into actual damage sets you back a fair amount. The fact of the matter is too that it is still very easy to achieve a lock long enough to fire a salvo of missiles, no matter how much I downplayed it. Even given your "[inherent] obstacles in your comfort zone" having to retreat to cover still buys the opposing AC time to gain distance and force you to sac some AP in order to get back to the butter zone. Flares, however, offer the best of both scenarios. It allows the AC to maintain their abusive position while negating the missiles for however long the flares have ammo.

 

Whether or not flares would theoretically reduce the incoming damage enough to justify sacrificing the extra damage output of missile extensions is another story.

Edited April 28, 2011 by NlJl

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

that, and yasmin blows

[Vincent210]

Well in the specific case of quads, you get a wonderful 3rd option: Ride the fucking wave.

 

Lets take your example for now. We have Rogan currently nailing the other AC with this MG Slug combo and things are going quite swimmingly, and then suddenly the enemy AC manage to gather enough distance to WTFHAXMISSLELOKOHNOES. all Rogan has to do at this point is punch it directly under the line of missiles and toward the enemy AC. If preformed right, the missiles should attempt to curve downward in order to hit him, and subsequently will punch the ground in the face instead of Rogan. The natural movement pattern of a quadruped AC makes it VERY hard for missiles to actually land where you would like them too on a quad opponent. All a quad must do is hike their speed with either a 2nd stage or quick OB and the missiles will suddenly go strait into the sand. aim yourself toward the opponent while taking advantage of that gift, and you kill distance and avoid damage all in one fell swoop.

 

Now, if we were talking an RJ or LW Biped, I wouldn't dream of crossing out missiles as a threat and would suggest GUYANDOTTE04s be added, since the vertical attraction is best at getting the missiles out of the way of your lock-on system and minimizing the dodging needed. But I just don't see it as far as quads or other very grounded speed crafts go.

[Falco]

Yeha but what if the person whos firing the missiles wants you to ride the wave, say, you ride the wave (usually move forward) and i stick a spreadzook shot right in your face, when dodging missiles movement patterns can get predictable, its my main reason for using missiles, they either QB chain like crazy that makes them run out of EN, ride the wave like you say which leaves them wide open to heavy hits like say, bazookas, greandes or kojima weaponry even.

 

imo flares allow for freedom in you movement while reducing the damage significantly and making your movements less predictable (if you're not predictable to begin with)

[█␢█]

While you can "ride the fucking wave" of missiles (with, actually, any AC to great effect--not just quads) that requires a fairly substantial distance to ride out the full barrage specifically with Wheeling03s. The missiles will take about 600 range horizontally before they are at the appropriate angle where you can dodge them in this fashion by moving forward, leading the missiles into the ground as the try to correct and turn around. This range will increase as you become lower than the target AC and decrease as you become higher than the target AC because the missiles the initial ascent of the missiles makes the trail of missiles not uniformed and eventually impossible to evade all the missiles. I'm having a hard time describing it so let me know if I wasn't clear enough for you and I'll try to go into more detail. I might even try to draw a horrible diagram to illustrate if you need me to.

 

Anyways, being that Rogan is on a quad and will, as a given, be underneath his target AC he will be a large distance away from the missiling AC (I'll be generous and let's say 700 range horizontally) in order for this scenario to be fully effective. In my book, this is enough range to say that Rogan has gone back to the beginning of the process of closing in on the target. What's more, I'd say that it's an outdated to think that firing a missile at such a range that the missiles will become level to the targeted AC while said AC is still facing the missiles is ever going to be effective. Save for the MP-203, you never want to do that. You always want to be firing a missile in such a way that they will be coming in from an angle, which is why missile fly-bys are so effective.

 

Additionally I'll clarify my scenario since you have the missiling AC now firing his missiles at an egregious range. Just for my own convenience, I'm labeling Rogan's AC R and the missiling AC X.

Given that R is already in the appropriate ranges for his MGs:

1. X flies upward while trying to do what he can to mitigate incoming fire.
   
2. X gains enough distance to achieve a lock long enough to fire off missiles (which in my mind is roughly 500-600 range total, but only about 100-200 range horizontally)
   
3. X fires missiles while passing over R.
   
4. R is then forced into the situation I mentioned.
   

R cannot chase after X into the sky indefinitely because R is a drainy quad. R is much too close to X in order to "ride the fucking wave." R has no answer to X's tactic other than the ones I stated.

 

And yeah, this isn't even taking into consideration that the AC could just drop down and line up a good high damage shot as you're moving predictably forward.

[Rogan]

Twinkle-Toes has started a missile discussion. Good for Twinkle

 

Actaully the situation the /b/ is describing is exactly the one which gave this AC the most trouble.

 

Yasmin do blow on this build, I'm changing them. I also made this fit on Dusk legs.

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/INSANE-O-FLEX/acfawheeling03.png

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/INSANE-O-FLEX/acfawheeling032.png

[Vincent210]

WHAT HAVE I DON... well, I've started far crazier shit on the interwebz so I'll save that reaction for when I out-do myself. Now I feel like I am in a pickle. I REALLY don't want to derail this topic and go deeper into missile avoidance tactics and scenarios, but I REALLY would like to continue this disscussion. TO PM'S I SAY!~ When we get a definitive dogding method that allows the user to maintain CQC with little chance for set-up or outright failure, we can bring this disscussion back into the thread.

 

I still want to say that the weapon setup would look better as MG Arms, Left Back Kamal, and everyone's favorite spread missile the.... (Insert Code-Like Name Here)... you know the ones, the ones that actually hit because they actually TRACK to an extent.

 

Edit: You say you've changed it up to fit on Dusks. Can we get an update bro?

Edited April 28, 2011 by Vincent210

[█␢█]

Make a topic, bro.

[Vincent210]

Maybe I will.... BRAH!~

 

Actually, for the most part I realized I don't need to. Because it just dawned on me that with my suggestions he never had to ride the wave in the 1st place. MG Arms can just cause the whole damn Salvo to blow in the poor bastard's (by which I obviously mean Rogan's opponent) face. Vert missiles could be shot down with a quick glance up or wave ridden.

 

TRAP AVOIDED BRO.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Vincent210

[█␢█]

Firing from above actually negates that whole missile-blowing-up-in-face side effect because the stream of fire is very inconsistent, allowing for windows where you can fire the missiles. Any type of AC and any AC weight class can do this with ease too. Additionally, missiles hardly blow up after being fired because they cannot target the missiles.

 

As for vertical missiles and their being "shot down with a quick glance up": this isn't AC4, and you cannot lock onto missiles. So while you may have your screen centered on the missiles from that quick glance up, you're still locked onto the AC, and you're still firing toward the AC. As for wave riding refer to my scenario with the Wheeling03.

 

I'd just like to state that using weapons to shoot down missiles is one of the worst things a person can do to "negate" missiles. For one, there are now tactics that render weapon fire's effect on missiles so insignificant that it is not an "if I get to fire my missiles," but a "when I get to fire my missiles." Secondly you are wasting ammo by attempting to shoot down missiles. Now with weapons such as the Eklakh or the Motorcobra, it's not as bad considering they have such a large reserve of ammo. However what happens when it's not a Musselshell or a Dearborn or MP-O203 barrage they're trying to shoot down which can be theoretically doused with a short burst of MG? When you have extended fire weapons such as the Wheelings, the Platte, the Vermillion, and the Muskingum you are then forced to waste a lengthy stream of bullets while leaving yourself vulnerable.

 

This brings me to my last point, which is only specific to this thread. The reason I advocated that flares on a quad are not useless is because they allow you to continue to apply pressure uninterrupted. Allow me to give you the most efficient method to shoot down extended-launch missiles. You run away to get the missiles to line up and then you throw down a stream of bullets to destroy the missiles. Notice that you have to interrupt your current play in order to remove the threat of missiles. The only situations in which you could do this without being interrupted is if the missiling AC fire them off at a great distance, which I had already said is a missile no-no.

 

Bra.

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

C cup thanks

 

 

shooting boolets at missiles is ok when someone tries to shoot a nuke at you from +700m

 

but that never happens unless youre pooping on noobs

[Vincent210]

I was actually getting lock-ons in-game earlier today for missiles, even though they are faint and fleeting, but for the most part, that argument ya got there holds. If someone manages to get in a barrage as he closes in, while I doubt he'd be severely damaged, he will most assuredly be interrupted.

 

Let's take up dat other one then, the one you buried, you know:

Whether or not flares would theoretically reduce the incoming damage enough to justify sacrificing the extra damage output of missile extensions is another story.

 

Edit: Actually, I can't really pick this one up until I see an updated look at his AC as it is now.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Vincent210

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

flares negate damage, they dont reduce it

 

yasmin reduces damage tho. yasmin only negates like 10% of the missiles shot at it

 

guyandotte gattalin and BFF flares all work brilliantly tho

 

 

 

also, you need missiles to make missile extensions to work

 

 

EDIT: remember, missiles arent always used purely for damage. theyre used to set up shots with other weapons and/or force an opponent to take a certain action while they attempt to avoid them.

 

because of this, it isnt always the best idea to simply dodge all the missiles thrown at you. flares make it so you can forget about missiles and dominate the offensive and defensive aspects of the fight

Edited April 28, 2011 by noob

[Vincent210]

I don't like the BFF flares personally because of the delay their firing mechanism causes though. They had to make it a whole fancy production, whereas the Gattlin and Guyandotte just quickly and efficiently puke flares out when called upon.

[█␢█]

Edited April 28, 2011 by NlJl

[Harakiri Tiger]

You can look up their spelling pretty easy nowadays. AC:fA Extension Parts

[█␢█]

Oh wow, gg.

[Vincent210]

Tee-Hee. Also, I'll be damned. I was right. By the set of that chart GUY's actually are the closest thing to a well-rounded set of flares. Also Noob has a reason to say Yasmin's suck... AGAIN. Edited April 28, 2011 by Vincent210

[Taurus]

YASMIN shoot flares quicker than 3 others flare units, and that's only one good thing about it.

 

EDIT : how to use YASMIN (long time ago, before I knew GUYANDOTTE04 was better), when enemy spamming missiles, wait for missiles come close enough (be careful, close enough and too close is not the same thing), then use YASMIN to deployed many flares. (about 2x10 flares per time)

Edited April 28, 2011 by Tarstrudelvick

[█␢█]

I'm glad you can just accept my ratings at face value, Vincent.

[Vincent210]

Well, I'm too lazy to test all of these things now, and regardless, I'm going to continue using GUYs anyway. I'm glad I made you glad. I think.

 

Updated all of my shit, too lazy to put up all my other designs from today, maybe tomorrow. I needs to catch up on Animation work.