Armored Core: Verdict Day Discussion

[exogen]

i dont think its a damage racing game because in the event that a damage race were to happen (purely 1v1), itd be favorable for the person who is at a disadvantage to retreat instead of fight because engagements are very predictable. so in theory, damage racing would not occur very much due to information transparency.

 

What do you mean by "information transparency?" Can you clarify on just how enagements are predictable? See, the whole idea of getting the drop on someone is that the other player who is getting dropped on, doesn't know its coming, hence they can't predict it.

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

scanning through walls, operator scan, etc. you can get info on the other players stats and weapons pretty easily and decide whether or not you should be fighting that person or avoiding them.

[exogen]

Oh ok, yeah I know what you mean now.

 

But at some point you need to engage them.

 

When you do, not all situations are going to involve your tatrget being completely flanked, because A. the flanking system sucks, B. you can't always get back to cover (for various reasons, all of which are cicumstantial and situational).

 

When your target isn't flanked, its a damage race.

 

Now I'm guessing you would say that those times are few are far between and overall its about getting the drop, correct?

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

i wouldnt say that direct combat is that infrequent. id even say that it makes up a slight majority of acv combat in practice. i agree with what you said for the most part yeah

[exogen]

Ok, but given the lack of dodging ability when the AC's are out in the open banging, even if it isn't the majority of the time, it does happen and should be expected as part of the game (again even if not all the time).

 

Just to reiterate, when an AC isn't flanked in ACV the situation is a damage race.

 

My argument here, is that in a game like AC4 it is never a damage race because,

 

1. You have the ability to dodge weapon fire or break locks depending on distance, and of course, skill.

2. Cover is an option and there is no reason NOT to whore it just as much as in ACV because the use cover will always mean you take no damage, whereas dodging involves engaging the enemy and therefore opens up the possibility (not the necessity) of getting it.

3. flanking exists obviously in AC4 as well.

 

Your argument is that since damage racing isn't something that happens for the majority of a given match, but instead only a small percentage of it (assuming players of high skill) it wouldn't be fair to label it a damage racing game. After all, if the strategy of the game is to avoid fire (not just because that is the rational thing to do but because dodging isn't as effective) then it would not make sense to say that damage racing is the objective because that could be a contradiction.

 

the question is, is your assessment of the game correct? Let's not debate that just yet. I think you might be right, but I'm just not sure if it is to the extent that you think it is. Assuming your characterization is correct, I can agree with you on that basis.

 

However, my issue, and I can see the way I said it was flawed, was that engaging the enemy in ACV, which is something that is inevitable at some point, is a damage race. I think THAT is the issue I take up.

 

If my above logic is sound, than it means we are actually in agreement, because our arguments miss each other. You’re looking at the game as a whole (your macro level) and I am looking at an aspect of the game in which I wish to criticize.

 

In AC4 I could use cover, I could engage the enemy, dodge their shit and flank them out, and still win against multiple attackers with my AP virtually untouched, and sometimes with a flawless. In ACV, try as I may, the game mechanics just prevent that. I AM going to take damage and there is nothing I can do about it. Skills, in terms of dodging and all that, don't factor in. That is what upsets me, among many other things about the game.

Edited June 2, 2013 by exogen

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

yeah id say thats a pretty fair assessment

 

in terms of what actually happens in the game, i think its kinda funny that neither instance is really true, since the metagame has so heavily developed around the mid-long range game with sniper weapons. at that level, it turns into more of an exchange game where its entirely possible to dodge sniper fire but still consistent enough to warrant its use. no one really tries to flank or damage race because of the risk both tactics involve in the team setting. flanking/damage-racing is very much high risk high reward

 

of course, a lot of it is map dependent and about 1/3 of the maps really suck for sniper play, but the rest of the maps have a lot of strategical advantage in abusing the sniper poke war.

 

i havent played very recently but thats the direction the game was heading the last time i had played.

[exogen]

The sniper dominance was obvious to me as an inevitablity, so if that is what they are running now, it doesn't supprise me.

 

If they made better dodging mechanics and CQC flanking it would keep the shit in balance. But they want to go and make a sloppy ass boost system so what do you expect.

[Rachis]

Yeah that sniper shit was really good. It was the only build I had any success with as a LW. Every attempt I had of making something that could hurt everything, that wasn't just a shotgunner, fell on it's face. The patch looked like it targeted gatling users and snipers though so maybe that turned things around a little bit. I wouldn't know though since I didn't care about the game anymore by the time the patch hit.

 

I don't have a problem with the boost mechanics necessarily. I feel like they finally force you to have to use some cover which has been sorely lacking since pre-AC4. I used what little cover was available in AC4, but it was honestly so much easier to just run a rifle/mg lw and get in someones face. At least that was the case after the patch that reduced rifle stun.

 

I think the problem is the defense system and how there are no legitimate CE options that deal high damage outside of howitzers and that's just not an efficient answer whatsoever. Running dual whatever was also a little too popular, but I've had a problem with weapons since LR.

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

i had a lot of success using a LW with EN amps and dual pulse guns

 

most of my time was spent running around in cover and stuff but the payoff was always instant kills on everything except tanks and HWs

 

CE has a high velocity high power rifle thats pretty good. they also got a rapid fire CE rifle for close range and about every AC could use CE shoulder missiles

 

howitzers were actually not that hard to hit acs with but they had to nerf them because people were abusing the shit out of dual howitzer objective killing. you could ignore the entire match and win 1v5s if you had a howitzer LW that could kill all of the objectives

 

TE also has a ton of super strong weapons as long as you can get over the fact that they drain en, since just about every AC has a TE hole

Edited June 3, 2013 by Bakuhatsu Pengin

[Rachis]

Battle rifles aren't what I would consider high power and pulse guns were energy sinks.

 

So no, I'm not convinced. I'm not exogen. I played the game.

 

If I wasn't taking advantage of a TE hole with a single pulse gun then I was just trying to ram a lot of KE down my opponent's throats. I had the same problem with ACV as I did with FA when it came to designing AC's. I was just too stuck on how things used to be and couldn't come to grips with how the game was. In both cases, I just didn't like the game enough to play it the way it was supposed to be played. With ACV, I tried forcing the 1v1 side of the game and that ultimately left me hating the game.

 

FROM just completely flopped on the game is what it all comes down to. If more people were playing then I would've cared about the team aspect, but because I'm not going to wait for 30 minutes to play with my team, do not have the patience to work with a bunch of random guys who end up being garbage anyways, and 1v1 being borderline unplayable because of the team balancing, the game ended up becoming a complete disappointment. As far as running bipedals go, this game is a complete letdown.

 

At least it lasted longer than Gears of War: Judgement. That was my favorite franchise and Epic figured out a way to kill a game in a month. It's really cool that I have to play games like Diablo 3 and Call of Duty because everything else that wasn't crap before is no good, but I get to be called a faggot for playing something that's at least playable. Tried Halo 4's multiplayer for the first time just to try and salvage something of my former multiplayer life and only lasted 3 matches. That game also has a stale multiplayer that managed to gut it's spirit as well. Went 58/23 overall though so it's nice to know I can feel right at home in a familiar franchise despite it being bad.

 

Of course, none of this would happen if the gaming community knew what was best for the games they played. Fuck gamers.

 

But hey, at least fighters are still complicated right?

Edited June 3, 2013 by Rachis

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

high damage BR was just as good as KE sniper in terms of damage, if not higher because of the general weakness to CE

 

the highest damage weapon for arms was the karasawa which only had 4 shots and required charge. other than that just about all the hand weapons had very similar damage output. idk how you could expect higher damage than a power tuned lotus or power tuned aunlee

 

if you really wanted more damage for any weapon type then youd have to use a HW kneeler or a tank with heavy weapons

 

pulse guns with amps instantly killed any AC that didnt have over 2k EN def. doesnt even matter that you tanked on energy using them, they only need 50% of a generators capacity to kill. of course it required ac specialization, but specialization is the only way you are going to make a LW work because of the limited load capacity and extremely low defense.

 

if you just wanted to mindlessly equip some TE weapon and some CE weapon then ACV had plenty of room for that. in fact you were encouraged to do just that becuse of the 3 type defense system. all weapon types were viable. the main reason snipers were strong wasnt because they were more powerful than laser rifles or BRs, they were strong because they shot faster. what do you think all dual sniper ACs had as back up weapons? zinna, lotus, aunlee, arachide, 23H, etc. you name it they had it and it most definitely worked.

 

id say you didnt play hard enough

[The Fallen Raven]

They're gonna introduce CE gattling guns (HEAT Guns) and TE shoulder missles (Plasma missles).

[Rachis]

Lol Nob

 

I'm talking about fucking grenades and huge laser cannons. The stuff that's been missing. I want weapons like the Vega before it got nerfed. If I want anything with that kind of power I have to run a tank or the stupid karasawa. Which yeah I think laser rifles in ACV are a complete joke.

 

Dropper setups got destroyed with ACV. Rifles aren't high damage.

 

This is what I'm referring to with my weapons problem. The guns aren't fun anymore. You just spam things to death.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Rachis

[exogen]

I'm not exogen. I played the game.

 

Excuse me Rachis, but I already posted in this thread about this. Noob was under the same misconception.

 

I had the demo months before the game came out, played the game when it did for at least 6 months before I dropped it. Also, I might add, I was more advanced than anyone else playing save for a few heads. The people that are good in that game now are only now learning the tactics I was using when the game first came out. Case in point, Anubis. Hell you can go ask him, he will tell you, I still talk to him and he still plays. You can ask Pete too, who was playing that shit right along with me. Ultibreaker also, or Impervious. All of us quit that bullshit.

 

Just to set the record straight, and to repeat myself.

 

I gave ACV a very fair chance but time and time again it disappointed me. It's not just that it has a system I don't prefer, but that game has all sorts of imbalances and flaws.

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

o ok i feel u

 

but really if tanks didnt have big guns going for them then theyd be useless. give a mw the equivalent of a grenade launcher and no one is gonna have a need for a tank. also hw droppers arent terrible if you only use 1 heavy weapon because of the giant defense boost

 

and on the flipside arm weapons are more powerful than from old games and the homogenization allows for better range diversity

 

the way i dealt with the lack of big guns was using overed weapons on midweights, which are all really fun to use

 

its just that i ended up killing just as many teammates as enemies but fuck it ITS THEIR FAULT

 

ALSO DONT HATE ON SAWA

SAWA IS LIFE SON

 

but really laser weapons in acv were not bad at all, especially with the buffs to charge time that have since been implemented

Edited June 3, 2013 by Bakuhatsu Pengin

[Rachis]

Lol yeah get out of the way.

 

And Exogen, you're excused. Although, I will not ask Pete. He only plays with guys with anger problems who only play the games he's playing when he's playing them. In other words, I think he's a faggot now.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Rachis

[exogen]

Oh damn I didn't know you and Pete had beef like that.

 

Anways, back to Amored Core.

 

As much as I don't like about ACV, I could roll with it if they fixed the dodging issue (by adressing the multiple factors that contrinbute to create that problem) and if they fixed the boost mechanics a bit so you could flank better. If they at least did that much I could have fun with the CQC like I want to.

 

I personally think that the whole team balance thing is a bad choice for Armored Core and I have observed that more people dislike it, although I don't think many realise why they hate it. They just tend to hate the rock paper scissorsish nature of the balance.

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

the worst part about the teams in acv was the lack of direct support post-release and the low population of players

 

team balance over 1v1 balance is great and all, but it doesnt work when theres only 4 people on in north america at any given time

 

actual gameplay i really didnt mind at all, though thats probably because i was having fun teamkilling everyone with overed weapons

[Rachis]

Oh damn I didn't know you and Pete had beef like that.

 

Pete and I had a really dumb falling out. And your playtime together doesn't mean anything. If you don't play the games he is playing then he doesn't care you exist.

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

[Mom]

He ditched me like 3 years ago so good. I gotta get back with him for possibly battlefield 4 tho. Nothing's more fun than saying fuck lag every 3 seconds without a care in the world.

 

I feel like they finally force you to have to use some cover which has been sorely lacking since pre-AC4.

 

 

Yo what's this.

[exogen]

I talk to Pete all the time, but I don't want to get in the middle of you guys beef.

 

Noob,

 

yeah I agree 100%. The team balance was a cool idea, and some different shit, but for a game like Armored Core, with its small player population, its a bad idea.

 

Also, I think it is a bad idea for two additional reasons.

 

1. AC is already hard to balance at a 1v1 level so the same imbalances should be expected at the team level, which can lead to more disastrous consequences because of the level of exaggeration and disparity between the build types. So where as a build was supposed to be stronger by, say, 50% or something over another build, might now end up being 75% stronger. If you aim the game for 1v1, they wont get the balance right and the game will just end up being balanced for teams in a weird way anyway. Just like we saw for instance with the heavy RJ's in the prior reg.

 

2. People play Armored Core because they want to build the robot THEY want to play with....isn't that the whole point of customization. customization goes hand in hand with personalization. team balance runs contrary to that principle because the robot a person wants to use may not always have its place, forcing them to play with things they don't want to or play a limited roll.

[Mom]

Tell that faggot to add me as friend again.

[exogen]

lol ok I'll let him know. You want me to mention the faggot part too lol

[Mom]

ya quote me word for word