AP or Defense

[Hollywood]

I'm not even sure where i saw this conversation but someone was going into a big spiel about which was better to have AP or defense.

 

So as I asked in the topic title which is more important to you when designing an AC ?

[Tsuranga]

I go with speed and looks . Def and ap come second since the only real change within part classes is like a 5-15% ap/defense increase or decrease so it's not like it makes a real difference.

[LCC]

AP in NX-LR, defense in every other game.

[Pendragon]

Good combination of both always makes me feel secure.

 

My max AP needs to be around 9000-9400 before I'll step into an arena, and in games past AC4, I need around 30k.

 

As long as I can take a grenade round without falling to pieces, then I'll be okay with whatever defense I can get.

[Vincent210]

Well, good defense makes up for lack-luster AP anyway, but the reverse is not quite true.

 

I'd rather have 30k and be losing 2k per hit from say a Hi-Laser or zook, instead of having 50k and taking some 4k-6k. The 50k dies in about 10 shots, the 30k about 15. I rest my case.

 

Since this is for earlier gens just shrink numbers. The concept stays the same.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Vincent210

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

Nah, not in NX-LR. Defense doesn't stack exponentially like in AC3-SL. If you go too high you're usually hurting your capability in other areas due to how they balanced out parts. Most importantly, combat in LR (I can't speak on NX/NB for this) is generally highly dependent on AP. Most battle decisions will be influenced by AP counts for both players.

[Taurus]

AP about 8000-8500 with 1700-1800 for both defense type (shell and energy) was good enough.

 

AP and defense would be going together. but just only for my favorite, I'd going with defensive more than AP. (and doesn't matter about AP that much, maybe higher than 8200 or lower than 7900)

Edited April 24, 2010 by Taurustrin

[Harakiri Tiger]

I don't see AP and Defense as seperate stats. Defense translates directly into AP. They're the only two parts of the equation that totals exactly how much killpower your AC can take before dying and that number doesn't change according to the weapon, just the shell type (Solid or EN). If you take 50% damage from solid shells then your 7k AP is actually 14k AP for all normal purposes.

 

I would normally say they're not really debatable as one being more useful than the other. There's just one problem with it, though. That only applies to standard concept matches where one AC destroys another. In LR, especially, the match is typically determined by remaining AP instead of AC death. This puts a bias towards AP, especially due to innaccuracy and speed mechanics. Your defense only comes in to play if you're hit.

[Mom]

AP in nx-lr, defense in rest.

 

Defense doesn't necessarily translate directly into ap.

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

Defense doesn't necessarily translate directly into ap.

 

Correct.

[Terminator98]

AP or defenses, Better not to get hit...

[LCC]

That's true for LR, but in older games defense stacking was often just as good as dodging and in NX/NB you literally couldn't dodge unless you were running a gimped defense dingo2 ac.

[Terminator98]

You could dodge to a certain extent in SL if I do remember.

Double GLLs did the job in Nexus. Of course, those were sadly banned.

 

Well, to answer, I think I always go with a decent ammount of both.

[LCC]

In SL you did both. Even then the extra mobility you get from being a light in SL was either equivalent or not enough to make up for the defense you get from stacking defense on a mid.

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

I dodge all day in SL! Mad jukes son what you know

[Harakiri Tiger]

Correct.

 

I disagree with TM and you.

 

Defense affects absolutely nothing else mechanically and exclusively acts as an absorbtion mechanism against a weapons killpower, which is exactly what AP does. AP is more manageable by the human brain in a shorter period of time; defense is more blurry because it's not a number that is added/subtracted, but rather multiplied. They serve the exact same purpose and are components of the same equation, the only difference being that you must be hit to utilize your defense (bonus AP).

 

Defense, when put to use (being hit), is absolutely just buffer AP. It does nothing else. If someone can prove defense affects some other mechanical part of the game, defense would not directly translate into AP. Otherwise it does, though.

[Mom]

Defense affects absolutely nothing else mechanically and exclusively acts as an absorbtion mechanism against a weapons killpower, which is exactly what AP does.

 

That's not true at all, especially for games like LR. AP acts as a defensive mechanism in that it allows you to play defensively and not play aggressively. Defense helps with absorption, especially if you either want to play aggressively and/or trade shots at mid range.

 

This isn't to say that defense and AP have absolutely no correlation at all, but it's saying there are certain ways to build that focus more on defense or ap, and thus focusing more on what type of playstyle you're going for in that certain ac game.

[Harakiri Tiger]

I understand where you're coming from, but that doesn't change the way the stat applies mechanically at all, just the way the players use it. Player use doesn't change mechanics, it just changes metagame and applied purpose. The reason AP lets you play defensively is because you're avoiding being hit and keeping AP lead, and the reason Defense lets you play aggressively is because you get hit more often and keep AP lead. These only exemplify that Defense is just AP.

 

I already acknowledged that AP is more useful in my first post. The reason for this is pretty simple, you don't get to use your buffer AP (Def) unless you get hit. It doesn't just change it's mechanical nature just because Defense only applies in certain situations. AP and Defense serve a single mechanical purpose. I've never seen someone prove that defense affects anything except for killpower absorption, which is what AP does.

 

Now if you had said, "AP doesn't translate into Defense." I would have agreed with that. The only reason that's true is because you can win the game due to having more remaining AP. By avoiding being hit you're avoiding the entire Defense stat, which is fine. It still doesn't change how that stat applies to the game, though.

 

I probably should have said, "When your defense is put to use, it is used as buffer AP."

[Barrettiel]

My opinion...I like to say i like to keep it balanced. But as for what im seeing. I believe what Niji is saying.

[Niji Superfan]

I'd say defense is more important in anything, period. Anyone who saw a stacked light-heavy with the BOLD arms in SL could tell you that much. I admit it's less important in NX/LR, but high defense absolutely cleaves higher damage weapons. It's less of an issue with the rapid fire weapons, which will hit more consistently, but it's significantly harder to make every shot count with, say, the BP than it is with the NIX. The ideal build in any AC game, playstyle and weapon loadout pending, is to have just the right balance of speed and defense/AP, such that you can be light enough to play it evasive but fortified enough to shrug off a few hits.

 

...Of course, that still doesn't stop me from building with satisfying my neurotic need for high AP in mind. In my defense, it's easier to gauge how your AC is faring on the spot based on its remaining AP than it is by its def totals.

[Master Ocelot]

I believe in two things...Speed and looks...pretty much it.

 

But AP is good too.

[torkair]

Saying that Defense is like AP is absolutely untrue because while AP decreases with shots over time your

Defense stats remain static throughout the match. Now if someone could state how much defense it takes to reduce a single shot by, say 5%, then we could start really getting into this conversation but until we have some sort of formulation to work with then its tough to say. If I had to take a single hit (like an LX or grenade shot) square in the teeth I would want more defense so as to mitigate the damage, but if it were something like machine gun fire I would want more AP because the MG relies on mass fire as opposed to the bigger guns single shot stopping power, and since it's impossible to dodge EVERY shot you might as well go for the big 3 of speed/defense/AP.

[Harakiri Tiger]

Damage reduction is a reversable formula that only grants extra AP. Defense has absolutely no other mechanical use besides damage reduction. Your defense is intrinsically tied to your AP through damage reduction, while your AP is not intrinsicly tied to your defense. Your AP decreasing over time doesn't make defense not equate to bonus AP, though. Just because defense is difficult to apply in a "on the fly" moment during combat doesn't mean its inherent nature changes.

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

AP in LR

[LCC]

Defense in AA.