YOUR combat style!

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

I'm worried that this crazy revulsion against backpedaling is an ego trap instead of just a regular complaint. That's my problem with it. Many people in the 4/fA community have started to basically demonize backpedaling instead of just not liking it or simply complaining about it occasionaly. It feels way too much like they're trying to invalidate the very tactic/strategy of backpedaling as "wrong". Which is both embarassing and crazy.

 

It's funny you mention this, because I've noticed similar. It's really strange too because they go to the extreme of the concept. Like before it was understood that the complaint of 'backpedalling' was running away the entire match and refusing to engage. More recently, it does seem more like the idea of moving backwards at all is a bad thing. Pretty sad.

 

I find it hard to believe that you ever really played without a heavy focus on the long-term, though.

 

Yeah, I mean I did consider it, but like...in the old days, I generally tried to overwhelm people with superior play.

 

Some examples:

 

, I make a lot of risky moves and I do a lot of things that look really fancy and cool but are fairly unnecessary. I strove to be like a professional dancer, as it were...kind of like Ali in his younger days. I wasn't showing off, persay, but more that my style itself was big on flashy maneuvers. At that time, I had strong reflexes honed from lots of fighting, and I felt I owed the crowd a show.

 

, I end up losing because of that very same thing I mentioned last in the paragraph before. The obvious way I should have played was to use my AP lead and heavier armor to make him waste his higher ammo count and force him into dangerous spots where his lighter armor would become an issue. I should have played defensively, but at the time, I didn't understand that I could make that decision. I wanted to win on my terms: with him dead. He thinks just like I do, but he understood that he could change how he won the match. Thus, he won.

 

, I think you can see what I mean by the changes in my play. I don't think the SL me could have maintained the level of focus I did in this match. I didn't do anything overly reckless and I tried to avoid wasted movement or being showy. Even the matches with a fast bot,

, I still played more conservative compared to before. There is more defensive play, backpedalling, less risky movements, and my aiming style changed a bit. You can still see flashes of the old me (like how I end the series) but generally I am playing a more fundamentally sound and cerebral style, and I draw heavily on my experience for strategies and understanding, instead of drawing on it for reflexes.

 

idk why I went into such a long-winded explanation but I guess it's because I've talked to people about it before hahaha.

 

EDIT: At least it was on-topic haha

Edited May 22, 2011 by Penguin Deus

[Harakiri Tiger]

I wanted to win on my terms: with him dead.

 

Haha, totes. You do you!

 

That first match with the I'm gonna smash the last bits of your face by OBing to you across the map ending finale was pretty funny. You laid into that poor guy, haha. Fuck yah, Watcher match. I like watching Watcher play. That fucker plays like a total douchebag. I love that guy, hahahaha. You can see his ass thinking. I've seen the sawa match like 10x now. The color reversal TM did still blows my eyes up, haha. The patient play you did it in it is what I mean by predictive for sure. It's another match where people can see thinking happening clearly. Pre-emptive shots for when he tries to pop out of cover and even tearing the building down to get to him cuz you figured he thought he'd be safe behind it. Werd.

[█␢█]

If I knew the moron or morons who are spreading it I'd enjoy kicking a GAC up their ass. It's one thing to complain about a playstyle, strategy, or tactic. It's another to try and demonize it so that other players shy away from it just to validate your own style of play.

Okay so some personal perspective on the anti-backpedaling mentality you seem to be noticing. I used to be a heavily backpedaling player and was perfectly fine running the clock, playing games of attrition. After I ended up at a point that I could beat up the people in my cul-da-sac, as you would say, by a fair margin and wipe the floor with anyone else, it got boring. Coincidentally this was about the time that Big Gunna showed up with his CQC playstyle, and I jumped on board.

 

This trend seems to be fairly universal, in my experience, between both AC4 and ACFA for people that start at the relatively same point of "being a defensive player": people play defensively, they get better, get bored, and change playstyles. That the change up seems to be CQC, I'm assuming is just largely because there's always some flashy player who's around to inspire, and it becomes a positive feedback loop.

 

Furthermore, I think you're misinterpreting the animosity toward backpedaling in the current FA scene. There are two perspectives to look at when dealing with the players that attempt to demonize defensive play:

• The players attack backpedaling as an excuse for poor playmanship.
  
• The players attack backpedaling because it has the connotation of being a "tryhard."
  

What you have said so far for the most part describes the former viewpoint most accurately. This, however, is not exclusive to backpedaling. I've encountered players who have considered CQC to be imbalanced, and that people who play offensively are playing the game "wrong." This, in my mind, invalidates said perspective.

 

However, the second viewpoint implies that there is in fact a difference in how rewarding defensive and offensive play. This is not to say that this is true at an absolute level, but it certainly is the case at the current development in the game, and what many people do when they feel that they are not being challenged is that they will dumb themselves down to keep the game interesting. So with this in mind, it isn't so much that people are falling into an "ego trap" as it is people being fed up with ego-maniacs that think they're in those top standard-deviations of skill because they are always using the more rewarding strategies at a casual level (implying that they certainly could play at that level if they reverted to their old playstyle).

 

This leads to something you already said, though, that

It's not about winning every match and it's very much about playing to have fun too. The idea that backpedaling isn't fun is like saying thinking isn't fun. It's more likely that you just attached a negative connotation on it because you think it's skillless or something.

And I think that, while not necessarily skillless, backpedaling is one of the safest and most effective tactics because currently there is no way to effectively punish mistakes (compared to

).

 

----------------------

 

Just as a TL;DR just in case I lost focus along the way:

People aren't saying there is anything wrong backpedaling per se; they're saying that the people who backpedal carry the implication of always playing to win.

[Malikayl]

Sorry Niji, your posts just seem to be very defensive about anyone who might even sound like they dislike backpeddling. Rogan may or may not like backpeddling, but he never said one word about it or stated an opinion. He likes to go forward, that tells me he likes CQC, I didn't get a negative opinion about backpeddling from it. That is just my personal opinion on his post. Im not going to assume something he never said. Is it safe to assume he prefers CQC over backpeddling.

 

Yes, I consider backpeddling using your QB to move backwards. I do not know anyone who only lazy boosts backwards because you will be overrun, so I assumed we had the same meaning of the phrase backpeddling. For more clarification, I consider a backpeddler someone who specifically makes an AC that only goes backwards. Using QBs to make them chase you and lower registry by moving backwards fast enough to reduce ballistic damage. Mainly due to ballistic speeds being too slow in reg 1.40. If you are on a lower or higher plane than them, it makes registry even harder. Its a pain in the ass to deal with.

 

My meaning behind not backpeddling more that three times means I do not use backpeddling alone as a single style. Sorry, I should have clarified that better. Many people will only backpeddle and reverse direction should someone catch up to them and repeat and rinse. I personally like to change directions because after backpeddling three times I have moved my opponent into a pattern, once I break that pattern it disrupts flow of how the battle is going, which keeps them reacting to my movements. But I do not use ACs designed to only backpeddle.

 

Hopefully we are on the same wave length now without any confusion. Sorry if I sound too literal, im not trying to insult your intelligence.

[█␢█]

Yes, I consider backpeddling using your QB to move backwards.

I...Oh.

[Malikayl]

Rephrase...Yes, I consider backpeddling using your QB to move backwards, repeatedly over and over.

[Harakiri Tiger]

• The players attack backpedaling as an excuse for poor playmanship.
  
• The players attack backpedaling because it has the connotation of being a "tryhard."
  

 

Those two are almost the same thing, though. Not quite the same, but not too different. They're both adding a negative canotation to the actual tactic, rather than the players who are doing it. I can understand it from the "tryhard" direction though, but that's the kind of complaining I would prefer to be kept in a place where there are enough people who know it's not wrong and can correct anyone around who misinterprets it. In other words, if a new player misinterprets it as maybe the "tryhard" doing something "wrong" there are other people around, if not the player who accused someone of being a tryhard, who can tell the new player that it's mostly because of anger and not because the actual tactic is "wrong" or "unfair".

 

One is just humbug complaining that, while it has the ability to form a scarring negative canotation, has a self-regulating system in place so that it never actually goes off and infects the gameplay or community mentality. That's why I tend to not call stuff new guys do faggy and such and I never do so outside of ACU with people I don't know in any game because it has the ability to accidentally make them actually believe some method of play is literally wrong or bad. If confined to somewhere like chat you can call them douchebags for doing it, etc, because they can just ask around if it's really bad to do and it's really likely that the person who called them a fag will probably tell them that there isn't anything wrong with it if not everyone else. They'll still probably call him a fag for it, tho. Haha. As long as it's clear it's just because they get aggravated playing against that type of strategy/tactic. TM and LCC and I call each other fags all the time in our matches for how we play each other. None of us actually believe that play is wrong and there's no chance any of us would tell someone that they shouldn't play like that because it's bad. Haha.

 

But yah, if you attack them for being a tryhard, it's fine. "Man, fuck you tryhard. I was just goofing off." That way everyone knows it's just cuz you're an angry douchebag and it has no lasting effect on the future of the games tactical/strategical development. Attacking backpedaling itself is bad, unless it is game breaking. Hate the player, not the game. If the player is a jackass who thinks he's amazing cuz he beat up a goofy AC or crappy player using a competitively sound tactic you should rage at him for being a dumbfuck, not his tactics. The tactics are competitively sound. Don't stunt potential growth of the game by hating the tactic. That's doing the same thing as you listed in your first bullet point, but in a roundabout/sneaky sort of way. I don't like that kind of shit. If you're going to be a jackass, be a jackass openly. I am a jackass, for example. You're a jackass. Raor is a jackass. TM is a jackass. LCC is a jackass. Etc, etc. I'm sure PD is probably a jackass too. Who knows? There's nothing wrong with being a jackass, if you ask me. Just don't be a jackass who doesn't think he's a jackass, cuz then you're just a God damn super hyper mega jackass in denial.

 

Fuck you super hyper mega jackasses! Jackasses in denial are just annoying.

 

=|

 

This is why I said breaking the games tactics down according to power/efficiency is better. If the game is imbalanced and they're doing something literally game breaking you can hate the player and the game. Fkn jackass player abusing a fkn jackass game. Fk him. Don't ever just hate the game, though. Hate the game, not the player is a cover up excuse for douchebags to pretend like they're not being douchebags.

 

 

 

PS: No it's not defensive, Mali. If you read through this forum you'd find at least 10 or so times just today I've called players fags for playing like fags, which includes backpedaling and stalling. You can also watch me do it in ACU Chat all the time. You're just getting that feeling because you're not used to this discussion, haha. It's pretty natural. This is a reaction to posts and comments I've seen on ACO, and posts and comments I've seen in the AC community as a whole since a bit before AC:fA came out in 2008. For some strange reason people seem to be trying to avoid backpedaling (or at least implying seriously) like it's something "wrong" or grimey. It's a general trending mentality that has become stronger with time and I remember some guy on ACO recently praising someone because they "had the balls to go forward" like he was doing something "right", which was just about one of the stupidest things I've read in a loooong while concerning AC. That comment actually sounded serious, too. Not just joking around.

 

It's also resulted in a messed up understanding of backpedaling starting to spread. Backpedaling is a tactic with a goal, not a direction of movement. Much like how we now have a messed up understanding of the term metagame in the AC community. Though metagame has been demolished by gamers using it incorrectly over the years in general. Like I said earlier, maybe I'm just reading too much into a harmless trend. I just don't want to see that kind of general mentality spread through the community, because it can damage development of players strongly.

 

And don't say silly things like "Sorry, I'm not trying to insult your intelligence." No one is going to assume you're doing any such thing here. This site is full of opinionated people that argue about all kinds of stuff. That's more offensive than anything else you said in your post, because it assumes that the person you're talking to might be too stupid to know it's just a simple discussion. Which is insulting someones intelligence. Hahahaha. So good.

 

=3

 

 

 

EDIT: HOLY SHIT. /B/. Don't link to Justin vs Daigo SF3:3S when you're talking about punishing faggy play. That entire match may be the epitome of faggy play that you just linked to there, bud. Hahaha. That is literally a match where one total douchebag totally douchebags another total douchebag right outta the match with insane douchebaggery! Hahahahaha. Legendary as fuck match, though. Werd.

[Malikayl]

Actually, im a asshole, not a jackass. Unless you talk to Sharriz, according to him im a Prick.

 

This is just going in circles so Ill clarify.

 

I never attacked backpeddling, I dont like to play with people who abuse the tactic.

 

I said I was not trying to insult people and was genuine, to say I was insulting them by assuming they were stupid is silly and argumentative. If I think someone is stupid, ill call them out on it. That does not mean that someone will misunderstand my post and get the wrong idea. I was being polite and there is nothing wrong with using TACT. You're so used to jackasses on these boards, I could see why you might see some hidden meaning behind my post. There was no such thing. Im blunt and I say what I mean.

 

P.S. About your sig Niji, if that is your definition of sex, you're doing it wrong.

[█␢█]

I'm looking for posts on ACO that would imply that there is a "right" or "wrong" way to play AC4/FA. If I find them, and they seem to be vilifying the tactic, then I'll agree with you, Niji. But assuming that I don't find too many, I'll just say this: It's a little difficult to call someone a tryhard without implying that what they are doing is in some way imbalanced.

 

Also Malikayl when can I find you on FA? I really want to play you now considering the strong things you've said on ACO (mainly that the 049AN sniper cannon is overpowered) haha.

[Malikayl]

I am usually on during the day and disapear in the evening for dinner and family time.

 

I have never seen a post or guide that states the "right" or "wrong" way to play the game. Most of it is over mics, people who complain about backpeddling, RJs, raiden quads, missle spammers....im sure you have heard them all.

[Vincent210]

I almost never hear people use a mic on FA. Also, b, friend meh on PSN and lets kill each other for a while, anywhere from right now to... say 3-4 hours from now is relatively open. All my plans were yesterday, I'm bored as fuck today. Edited May 23, 2011 by Vincent210

[Harakiri Tiger]

I'll just say this: It's a little difficult to call someone a tryhard without implying that what they are doing is in some way imbalanced.

 

If you mean game imbalance, that's not true at all. There's no implication that the game is imbalanced when you call someone a "tryhard" unless you're in denial. It just means you purposefully limited yourself in some method and/or played shitty and you are angry that they didn't do the same. If they knew you were coming into the match limited like that and still played you like that, then you're safe to call them an asshole. It doesn't change that the loss is still your fault though, so by calling them an asshole you have to recognize that you are being an asshole too. As long as you realize you're being an asshole too I don't think there's anything wrong with that, since the responsibility of your words rests clearly on your shoulders. You'll just be venting anger, which isn't a big deal. If for some reason someone seriously thinks they're doing something bad, you'll likely tell them you exploded just cuz you're angry. Which is your fault to begin with. It's relatively self-regulating.

 

Now if you're calling someone a tryhard because you actually think they are abusing game imbalance, then you're probably suffering from Tsuranga syndrome. It's a state of denial concerning who's fault it was the match/game turned out the way it did. That's what I call an ego trap. It's exclusively a fault redesignation. For example, Tsuranga uses the "tryhard" excuse all the time in LR on Kai so he can have "fun", so much so that he impedes others from having fun by villifying their play (on rare occasion) or their design (nearly every match).

 

The reason I said "probably suffering from" is that there could actually be a solid game imbalance apparent, for which you should be able to provide a solid argument for and should be bannable in some fashion or another. If you can't provide a solid argument for it or can't find anyone who can, then you're back to Tsuranga syndrome until you can figure it out. If the imbalance is there, but not bannable or preventable in some fashion or another, then the blame is back onto your shoulders for choosing to involve yourself in that scenario and trying to force the game and people to play the "right" way (your way) or for not going easy on you. Which just makes you an asshole in denial.

 

Now if you mean the match was imbalanced, because you purposefully limited yourself or played shitty and you're angry that they didn't do the same, then yah you're going to be implying an imbalance. But that doesn't say anything about the game, just the participants. That's basically what I talked about in the first paragraph of this post.

 

When I use my CQC bot in fA against Chode's standard bots, the match is pretty imbalanced and I will probably call him a fag. He's being more of a "tryhard" in those matches than I am, after all. He knows my bot is significantly weaker in the fA gamestate than his are on top of knowing he's better than me at the game, yet he very willingly plays smart, doesn't use horrendous bots, and tries to win. He has fun doing it, too. I know quite certainly that it's not the game that is imbalanced in those matches. If I felt that it's the games fault (even slightly) for those outcomes I would be suffering from Tsuranga syndrome for sure. Chode and I forced the imbalanced state through our choices, much more so me, less so Chode. Making up excuses to try and pretend like the imbalance isn't mostly my fault or partially Chodes fault would be called denial.

 

Chode knew, so I can call him as asshole. I knew, so I'm being an asshole for calling him an asshole and I recognize that. I know Chodes not dumb enough to actually take it seriously and think his play is legitamately wrong, otherwise I wouldn't call him an asshole to begin with. I'd just get angry and leave or keep trying to win. If for some reason Chode actually did start thinking there was something wrong with his play I'd tell him that I'm just calling him a fag cuz I'm bad at the game and am venting anger. You've probably seen me do that before. Vent anger, then say it's my fault right after. I'd probably ask him if he has any legitimate reason for thinking that, too, since he's a pretty good kid and I wouldn't expect that kinda response out of him normally.

 

I sincerely hope you don't call people tryhards while under the effects of Tsuranga syndrome, /b/.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: No one is dumb enough to straight up say there is a right or wrong way to play the game. They'd get ridiculed by the majority that they'd automatically offend. It's almost always implied by the way they act and/or talk. If it were so simple as pointing at X dumb person for saying the game should be played this way or that there wouldn't be a reason for me to post about it at all. They woulda been mobbed a long time ago. I've seen it happen. If you want a simple example of what I mean, look at parts of the blading community (especially pre-fA/post-LR). From AC1 all the way to ACV, that will be one group that will haunt my dreams for the entirety of my life.

[Densuo]

"Fucking stop throwing me!"

 

I LOVE getting messages like this I ate this in person while playing tekken 4. a player was doing nothing but christie... spamming noob mash combos. I'd seen it all and just block and silver whipped him to death. he demanded a rematch. we played again, and he began to play defensive. "I can block too scrub" to which I then started throwing. alot. I threw him 5 times in a row. "is that all you can do? THROW?!?!" he then ate Violet/Lee's 13 hitter after baiting him to try to grab.

 

I love it. seriously. guys just do not expect to get thrown 5 times straight or just me spamming the same damn move.

 

On topic of backpedalling, I'm naturally defensive minded, my fault was realizing that by backpedalling I was ignoring the benefits of RJs... and was subsequently owned.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Densuo

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

your all an assholes'

[Malikayl]

That's a good one: RJs....broken or not?

[Harakiri Tiger]

I don't think RJs are broken, no. I'm not an expert on 4/fA, though. They're definitely good at handling the vertical game of AC4 and they're one of the few leg types I like to use Virtue on. I'm an OB whore, tho. Even in AC4, so RJs aren't exactly my thing. RJs in LR and down don't suffer from a forward momentum speed drop, tho, so I like'm quite a bit there.

[Griffon]

I don't think RJs have ever even come close to being broken, yet. Given what they seem to be able to do in V though, they do look like they'll certainly be very, very good at least but probably still not broken. \

But yeah, From my understanding, RJs have usually been on the low end of the scale lately.

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

Ever in AC, or ever in ac4/fa?

 

They definitely came close in AA. VAT legs were hands down the most powerful legs in the game. It was the only time I went to a tournament and over 50% of the participants ran the same legs. When a leg weight can support the k-saw, rock, rook, two of the top missile packs of your choice, and still handle like a dream and move fast, you pretty much have a legset that needs looking at.

 

We didn't ban it in California, but it was a game-changing leg set.

[LCC]

I feel that STVM has a big advantage over VAT as it still has ample turning and the difference in speed doesn't outweigh the higher defense. VAT basically just allows easier grounder/raining multis use where STVM favours more IDA/large rockets stuff. VAT has a clear advantage over 9001/A and XAFF though, and is a top3 legset for sure. Didn't really break the game tho. Edited May 23, 2011 by LCC

[Malikayl]

From my personal experience in AC:4, I had no issues with registry on a RJ until AC:FA. The bad netcoding is so horrible that I wait 2 seconds after a RJ jumps before I fire at it. For some reason, when a RJ changes direction by either lazy boosting or QBing, it really screws with your FCS. If someone has a shitty connection on top of that, forget using guns and pull out the missle spamming. I know quite a few who claim them to be broken because of this.

[Harakiri Tiger]

Lag ruins everything, yah. It's really one of the more major reasons why I don't play 4/fA much. Those games are far more tolerable without lag. I would totes say RJs were most powerful in AA, tho. I don't feel MoA, SL, LR, or fA RJs are anywhere near as useful. fA RJs are only annoying cuz they can really mess with lag, but I don't consider online play to be serious play. At best it's casual competitive. In a LAN 4/fA RJs are definitely good, but not amazing.

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

Owen is about to rewrite the style of all kai players with his new bot.

[Harakiri Tiger]

Is it a giant penis or something?

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

It is Purple Jesus.

[Vincent210]

 

On this RJ topic, of course their not broken per say, but they are really useful. They can basically give any craft an up down game & free you up to be a drain-whore. When used properly, then can lend themselves to many styles, most notably IMO Mid-Close hit'n'run & 3D CQC, both of which become very disorienting for the opponent When you can so suddenly change both height and direction. Genocide used to make me dizzy with his RJs doing this.