Last Raven Fantasy Duels

[Mom]

I think this is just one of those situations where you're looking into stats too much. I had LF71 figured out before you probably ever made an attempt to get on kai, I played around with it a lot on what would be my main quad, and a couple other quads that ran LX and Geryon3, and most of the testing was vs Redrummurder and Dacapn. LF71 look great on paper and are on average about 30-40kph faster on ground than others, there's no denying that, but it's just one of those situations where the numbers don't directly translate into real-world results. Every time I've used LF71, it has never felt solid, prone to breaking, and has same agility as A2 and Lizard. Lizard statistically actually isn't that great, but it found its place as my go-to quad legs.

 

I wouldn't expect an LF71 quad to ever win a tourney

 

But I could see an A2 quad winning a tournament.

 

And the whole notion of 'casual' vs 'tournament solid' is void. Angel Eyes is in my mind a casual AC, but a very solid AC. There's certainly crossover. Casual ACs that are built very solidly still have the right credentials to take a tournament, it's mainly all about avoiding fundamental flaws. Very solid ACs duking it out is pretty fun too boot, which is why I personally found enjoyment out of the last match.

Edited June 23, 2011 by TMRaven

[Shirtless Crackhead]

What's the point behind Cerberus w/ LX in the game?

[SUMERIAN BLOOD GOD]

No Omega versus Boreas

 

Phil Collins versus 30 FT Stick

Edited June 23, 2011 by Ninety

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

I have never in my life seen an underweighted Lizard or A2 that has comparable speeds with LF71.

 

Nah, I have had the same experience. Lizard and a2 underweighted handle pretty stupendously and get around the map quick. That's what makes a bot like

so dangerous. It can get really light in a hurry.

 

I'm not going to argue with those stats, because they don't mean much; more on that in a second.

 

LF71's downside is in shell defense and starting with AP lead. That's about it, really. Statistically it's fine, especially for its weight, and as far as breaking goes I've never seen it break particularly often. Sometimes I wonder if you guys really did play with all the leg sets or just used a few.

 

I don't follow the logic here. You're saying Owen didn't really use the legs, questioning his experience, and then saying the stats don't support what he's saying? Are you serious? This is Last Raven. The stats almost never tell the whole story on the parts. Field testing does. The same kind of field testing they are trying to do in this very thread.

 

If you don't agree, you don't agree. Maybe your experience has been different. Maybe the only way to settle the argument is for you to drag him onto the field and put your money where your mouth is. That's all fine and well, but to question Owen's experience, especially in this particular case, is highly suspect.

 

It's kinda like how some of the older crowd doesn't like FG and seem to have somehow established in their minds that FG/FL is some kind of clear cut decision when the arms are realistically very similar in application.

 

It is a clear-cut decision. You run FL unless you can't make the weight and drain isn't an issue. They are roughly the same arms as FG except with better cooling and lower drain.

 

It's safe to say that challenging Angel Eyes was a really bad call to begin with, though. Picking tourney solid bots as opponents for casual ACs is pretty nuts.

 

No. It was a bad call because 1) anything remotely similar to Angel Eyes will hard-counter that bot, and 2) 98g quads are not very good.

[Shirtless Crackhead]

They are also challenging Angel Eyes.

[Harakiri Tiger]

Every time I've used LF71, it has never felt solid, prone to breaking, and has same agility as A2 and Lizard. Lizard statistically actually isn't that great, but it found its place as my go-to quad legs.

 

Yah, I know that feeling myself. It's one of my problems with those legs, but I still think they're not terribad. I feel distinctly different from stuff like the Gavials when I use LF71. Gavial makes me feel like I can't even play the game, whereas LF71 I just feel like I'm not metagamed great.

 

I think part of the problem is that you don't really need that much speed and you do need that much shell defense, at least in tournies.

 

And the whole notion of 'casual' vs 'tournament solid' is void. Angel Eyes is in my mind a casual AC, but a very solid AC. There's certainly crossover. Casual ACs that are built very solidly still have the right credentials to take a tournament, it's mainly all about avoiding fundamental flaws. Very solid ACs duking it out is pretty fun too boot, which is why I personally found enjoyment out of the last match.

 

By casual I mean misdesigned bots. Tournament solid or competitively solid is very much not void. You're not winning a tournament with Silky+Nix, an Aries hover, or generally misdesigned bots. Bots like that can't even compete in casually competitive scenes properly. That's what I call casual. Things like PD's bots are generally competitively casual at worst, which is still competitively solid.

 

What's the point behind Cerberus w/ LX in the game?

 

I was joking about Cerberus to try and get them to use it. It's a horrible cannon.

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

Aries hover

and

 

Cerberus

 

must be combined.

[Shirtless Crackhead]

Consider it done, I'm gonna pit it against Nob's Gaea/Panther bot.

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

Noob has a gaea panther? Post it up Noob that should be strong.

[Mom]

I still can't believe Lionheart urged me so hard into using Gavial in multiplayer. That shit's slower than a tank. Bad feeling when you lose to EJ's Green Eye because you can't move.

[Shirtless Crackhead]

I think I might make a more serious Aries bot, based of Lukav's old Omnipotence bot back in the day; I don't want this to be a completely ass-o-nine fight.

 

EDIT: PD, noob is currently working on said bot.

 

EDIT EDIT: I'm gonna let noob pick, he can pick Pin Prick 2.0, an Aries+Cerberus hover, or a less silly Aries hover.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Enganacious

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

Owen wants someone to challenge his k-saw bot so put me down for that. I'll try to find something today or tomorrow, unless the queue is already full for this weekend.

 

@Raor If its a gaea panther it needs to be something serious it faces. Gaea panthers are pretty brutal. Come correct with it, son! Pin Prick 2.0 sounds like it might be a good one. It'd be a nice test, anyhow.

 

I'll try to make something equally stupid to fight an aries+cerberus hover. Not sure if I'll have that done this month, though.

[Mom]

there's bound to a lionheart ac somewhere on the forum.

[Crimson Fury]

Angel Eyes shoots guys through pillows and doesn't even care! He also has infidels beaten severely. Who dare challenge such fortitide?

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

"How's that indigestion now?"

[Shirtless Crackhead]

Pin Prick 2.0 vs. Barnacle Boy Edited June 24, 2011 by Enganacious

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

What is the company Tsuranga likes the most? Mirage?

[LCC]

Just to clarify, I'll be away this weekend and early next week so fights will happen wednesday or later.

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

Okay, cool. That gives me time to make my Tsuroll.

 

Mr. Smith (in The Court of the Turtles) vs 3 Socks

[Harakiri Tiger]

Stats always tell the whole story in games. I'm not sure you understand how games are coded if you think otherwise. They're nothing but stats in them. There's no magic feelings fairy out there that makes bots work by some outside magical fountain of mechajuice. Not knowing how to relate the stats properly because you don't really know how they translate to the game exactly (formulas for stats for example) or not having access to hidden stats does not void visible stats. That's a silly and braindead concept. Stats rarely lie in games. It's the user that either doesn't know how to interpret them or doesn't have access to enough of them.

 

Yes, we don't have access to all the formulas and hidden stats. That doesn't mean that visible stats are void, tho. I had no idea that cooling, turning, AP, weight, en supply, stability, and defenses were trash stats that lie to us. There aren't exactly a million stats to look at, either. Landing stability is a lie? Don't trust it? Maybe I shouldn't believe what the aim accuracy stat on the arms is, either. Since it's probably not true. If you're saying stats are lying on most parts then those have to be the stats that are lying, because I don't know too many other stats that show up. You must have some kind of conspiracy theory about stat contrails too. I'll be sure to notify everyone that cooling, ap, turning, defense, en supply, and stability are all lies and they shouldn't be believed. I'm not sure that we'll have much left to work with other than biased match results then, though. We'd all be trapped in Exorcet world where we all don't need radar since Exorcet does pretty good without radar in his fights supposedly.

 

As for questioning the experience, yes I am. It seems like the data you guys are gathering is based exclusively off field experience through biased matches. I mean, calling that Hakan vs Angel Eyes match a field test is kinda silly for me to take even remotely seriously. I could also test whether Dingo2 is good compared to S2 and have Kujaku equipped on the Dingo2 bot and Lotus on the S2 bot. I'm not getting accurate results for comparison pertaining to those legs in that match. These matches never struck me as field tests, really. I sincerely hope they're not, haha. We'd have our heads up our asses pretty far if we took them that way. They're for entertainment and enabling us to have a little fun shittalking each other.

 

Field tests are wonderful when they're done right, because they enable you to gather valuable data void of bias and human error as much as possible. If you're going to try and field test this stuff you're gonna need both solid discussion around the parts to generate some kind of design theory catered to the parts and then something like 5-10 tests centered around checking whether the design theory applied even works, let alone whether the part works. Using joke bots like Hakan meets none of those criteria.

 

You may have other experiences with the part in the past, which is exactly what I am calling into question. Maybe you know of some feature of the part that I don't know of because it's unlisted or hidden. The stats certainly don't lie though, so that means either you guys are wrong or you need to be able to define what the problem is with the part due to hidden stats or what is wrong with my interpretation of the current stats via something besides the generic anectdotal evidence of "it didn't work for me".

 

I've used LF71 a good bit, too. It's not just some legset I looked at a day ago and decided was good because it had some blue numbers. The same as I didn't suddenly decide that FG or 88A were suddenly usable out of the blue. None of them are particularly magical, but none of them are bad (period). I know that LF71's agility isn't something game changing, but it's very similar to Dingo2's. Lizard/A2 can get good enough agility too, but this would be very much like saying Cougar2 can get just as much agility as Panther. You're certainly not matching LF71 agility with Lizard/A2 agility. You can get enough agility to dodge most weapons with A2/Lizard, but no way are you matching agility with LF71. LF71's agility isn't as good as Panthers, but it's at nearly the same level of responsiveness as Dingo2. I certainly don't see any of this leg breaking going on, either. It didn't break in those "field test" vids vs 81G, let alone go yellow. Nor does it seem to break easy when you just shoot at it in split-screen. I'm not sure where you guys are getting this "prone to breaking" information. Since none of this easy breaking ability is replicable in the videos I've seen, nor in any of the play I've done with the set, nor is there any traceable discussion on it. I'm going to call your experiences into question. What kind of test are you doing that makes the LF71 break faster and more often than Panther, for example?

 

Also, I had no idea that 17 drain was such a big issue for you. Man. 17 drain change going from FL to FG. That is unbelieveably harsh. Way too much energy loss. That's actually so much that it might be feasibly possible for an augmented cybernetic human eye to notice the slightly faster recharge. FG and FL are different enough to warrant use on different machines, but they're hardly different enough to affect a match noticeably unless you just have a horrible design to begin with. It's exactly why I question that bizarre and very Exorcet-like approach to these parts. There's neither locateable video evidence nor valid discussion nor statistical evidence about these pretty solidly unfounded claims, on top of which people constantly make claims that are wrong about the parts entirely like saying X breaks uncommonly often without me being able to find any proof of it or that (like you just did) they just flat out state something incorrectly like drain being a big deal between them when they have nearly the exact same stat in that field. I'm not sure why you would think I should believe you when you get information like that wrong. I would prefer to just assume you mixed up the arms, but I don't think you did. It certainly doesn't sound like you tested every part thoroughly when you claim 17 drain is important enough to even notice, if you really believe that. I suppose drain is probably lying, though, right? The drain listed on the stat page is not the REAL drain. That's the drain in a vat. The REAL drain is 2x as high on FG. Obviously. AC contrails. Gotta be those AC contrails, werd.

 

 

 

PS: That put your money where your mouth is ego is another problem. I can't believe you just decided to post that dumb shit, either. You just can't fucking stand anyone saying anything that doesn't go in line with what you like or what? Just so you don't have to be butthurt about someone disagreeing with your design theory or something. How the fuck do you randomly interject yourself in this argument and then decide to be a fight instigator and think it's a good thing to do? Bonus info is nice, but this kind of dumb bullshit isn't. Your field tests are trash if they're just about whether your e-dick is big or not. It's childish at its core and entirely stupid. I don't see Boeing riding the janitors egos for testing their planes. "Oh dude, the plane I like is totally better than the one you like lets have a fight and that's the one the company will use." I've never seen such an extreme desire to rely on information that's gauranteed to be biased. You really want to settle it on something like this, too. I've seen you say this kind of dumb shit to other people before in discussions. Niji and TM are so good at AC that they're great for deciding the tiercharts for parts. As if even LCC and TM are good for it with all the fuckups that happen in their matches. Get the fuck out. You don't want to discuss the shit so you just try to bully people around with this dumb shit. Like every scientist has to be able to swim like Phelps to be able to understand swimming or give him beneficial advice or criticism. It's a stupid as fuck trait and an attempt to prevent criticism because you don't want your ego even rubbed up against. As if I wouldn't play TM on Kai if he wanted to test the stuff out to begin with (already insulting enough), but you also try to make the claim that two players of sub-par mechanics should decide part power via their "field performance". You seriously think I should respect your opinion for that, when the only thing you seem concerned with is some kind of dick measuring game?

 

Attacking me like a jackass just to defend TM from me questioning his post on LF71 is pretty douchebaggy. You went way the fuck outta line with it by trying to drag it out of what could be a discussion and into an e-dick fight even if you were trying to just be funny, but this time I'm only gonna respond with my own out of line post.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Niji
Edited out some angry text I didn't mean.

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

Sorry I offended you. My bad.

[Harakiri Tiger]

Nah, I'm the one that threw the fit. I just needed some time to calm down. I think just posting it helped cuz after I re-read it I felt kinda dumb. I'm pretty prone to these overreactions, haha. I also had to put up with like 20000 customers wanting beer without enough money while I wrote it, so that probably didn't help.

 

Aries+Cerberus+Hover probably has no regen, tho.

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

It's cool, mang. I was thinking I came off harsh on my drive home.

 

I will provide something equally stupid to face. So far I haven't been able to beat Liger with it. Looking smooth.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Penguin Deus

[LCC]

I think it's time to ask god himself the answer.

 

http://ravenrepublic.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=2357

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

In the Phillipines, God is force.