LulzSec

[Artdeux]

Hold ups, bullying, and blackmail can all be accomplished easily through individual efforts. Terrorism can embed itself within the media or other means, and have literally no actual persons behind it. The internet only makes these kinds of efforts easier to enact, as a single person can reach a wider audience.

Of course, we can all reach a wider audience, but you'd need some form of reputation in order to to be taken seriously. Just like how we can never take Pen seriously because of his reputation.

 

Though you could use the reputation of someone else to validate your threat/rumour if you word it well enough. IE: I tell you that Tony Jay said blah and blah.

 

That reputation could also be caused by something as simple as creating a meme.

LulzSec can create a crisis. Hitting someone's wallet, privacy, or other such 'commodity' is, to many, a greater offense than hitting their face.

Well, that's not really the crisis I was thinking of. By your prior example of the Cold War, I was thinking more of a global crisis where everyone gets involved.

 

That's more of a crisis of security, which would make people afraid to trust doing anything on the internet again. I don't think it would effect much, as people who want something off Amazon could probably just go and phone order it.

With people living as much of their lives through FaceBook and Twitter, propaganda can be spread, I would argue, more easily than it had in the past through news and social circles (largely because FaceBook and Twitter act as many peoples' social circles, as well as their mean to news). People can't "force" you to read their tweets or comments, anymore than they could force you to listen to them or watch the news. But you're going to.

True, I guess I was thinking of government propaganda when I said it. Hadn't thought of a social network spread of it.

 

Do you have any examples on hand of this happening?

There also exists the possibility of having two opposing parties that may have valid threats against each other, which has the odd effect of validating the threat of both parties. We can see at least a partial example of that even in this situation, via TheJester vs LulzSec.

Truth be told, the only news I have heard was Lulzsec's IRC going down, which may or may not have been Jester. One thing with "Hacker Wars" such as this, is that both parties cannot shut eachother down for long, unless TheJester gets a bunch of Lulzsec data like names and where they live. I am not sure how likely that is.

Where we stand now, the cards have been played. There's no escalation of consequence. I know they've said that the stolen information isn't going to be used to rob anyone, or cause any real harm, but the idea is out there. There are people (e.g. Pendragon) who won't be convinced otherwise. When faced with such situations, people tend to feel they've got NOTHING TO LOSE and give in to further carelessness/recklessness.

Well, Lulzsec said that they wouldn't use the information to steal things, but since the information has been released to the public, what other people do with it is up to them. Going back to how lots of people use the same password everywhere, you can get a lot of info on someone.

 

Enough to be able to send them 15 dildos.

 

First though, you'd have to find a password that matches the E-mail.

 

Second, you'd have to hope that the E-mail is linked to some form of account that would have money.

 

Third, you'd have to hope that either the E-mail password is the same as the account password, or that you can guess their secret password using what you can gleam from their E-mail and any social sites they belong to.

 

I'd say it's actually fairly unlikely that you would be able to send someone 15 dildos, and any success attempts would have been publicized in a way that would make you think it's happening all over the place. I guess that would be propaganda.

 

Information:

LulzSec The Lulz Boat

Thank you to the supporters who have assisted in leaks. Like @WikiLeaks, our sources remain anonymous. Leak payloads are being decided now.

5 hours ago

Apparently Lulzsec has been able to obtain government data. We will probably see results tomorrow.

[Ataraxis]

- True. I'd argue a reputation is harder to create than to destroy, but that's not saying much.

 

- A crisis on the smaller scale of crises is still a crisis. Internets are crucial in this world. Have you dealt with a company through the phone lately? It usually means dealing with a bunch of machines, a foreign person (no matter where you live, the person you get to deal with is going to be foreign!), or elevator music. Businesses built through the internet have the luxury of nearly unlimited customer flow, and they don't need a bunch of phones or people to operate them. It's a boon.

 

- [Artdeux] 3:00 am: You don't have to. I think I found my own example.

 

Thanks bro.

 

- Right, but they're both aware of each other, and have in some way adjusted themselves (e.g. apparent removal of some statements but LulzSec members - I base this statement on what I've read on ACU). Whether anything comes from it is kind of irrelephant to my point.

 

- It doesn't really matter who ends up using the information, just that it can and does end up getting used. The locksmith isn't making a key to get into your house, but that's totally what the guy he's making it for is going to do. This is a good comparison, because keys are like passwords, and you'd be surprised how easily people give out their keys.

[Artdeux]

- A crisis on the smaller scale of crises is still a crisis. Internets are crucial in this world. Have you dealt with a company through the phone lately? It usually means dealing with a bunch of machines, a foreign person (no matter where you live, the person you get to deal with is going to be foreign!), or elevator music. Businesses built through the internet have the luxury of nearly unlimited customer flow, and they don't need a bunch of phones or people to operate them. It's a boon.

Ahh, that's right. I forgot that they've outsourced that. I'll concede to your point now, as I've found out the amount of money that flows through some online sites is huge, and if disrupted could make the market take a turn for the worse.

 

On that note, apparently Steam made more than a small country last time they had their summer sale, which is coming soon.

- Right, but they're both aware of each other, and have in some way adjusted themselves (e.g. apparent removal of some statements but LulzSec members - I base this statement on what I've read on ACU). Whether anything comes from it is kind of irrelephant to my point.

Well, to me it's relevant because it shows action coming from their threats, which makes it more genuine.

 

- It doesn't really matter who ends up using the information, just that it can and does end up getting used. The locksmith isn't making a key to get into your house, but that's totally what the guy he's making it for is going to do. This is a good comparison, because keys are like passwords, and you'd be surprised how easily people give out their keys.

Of course, I was just clarifying.

 

Truth be told, keys aren't a very good comparison. While both passwords and keys unlock things, there are only so many keys out there to unlock your door while passwords can be infinitely duplicated without cost. If someone breaks in with a key they made with a locksmith, and the owner determines a duplicate key was used, the owner can check all the locksmiths in town to see if his key was duplicated. And if one of the locksmiths has duplicated your key, you will get a witness to the suspect that made the duplicate.

 

There are no such physical trails like that with passwords, and passwords can be used invisibly, taking your information without leaving evidence that they were ever there.

 

As for people giving out their keys, there's an element of trust that goes into that. "I trust you to not be a dick and use my keys to steal my beer". Not to mention, if something does happen, there is immediately someone you can talk to and see if they misplaced the keys.

 

Trust is a very hard bond to form exclusively over the internet.

 

A better comparison would be retrieving the pass-code for one of these:

http://image.made-in-china.com/4f0j00WetahMLRqVkg/Electric-Digital-Password-Door-Lock-9102DG-.jpg

And wearing gloves when you typed in the code.

 

That pretty much covers everything, doesn't it?

[Shirtless Crackhead]

Hopefully this all gets thrown out the window when there's a world-wide mesh network.

[Pendragon]

lulzsec hasnt lied about anything they've done so far, don't see why not trust them when they say what they will do

 

They've stolen information and claimed they released it all.

 

Then, in future manifestos, they said "OH WAIT WE DIDN'T ACTUALLY RELEASE IT ALL.".

 

That's a big enough lie for me. I wish I could find the source again, but I bet those chickens deleted their tweets off of Twitter.

 

Also, they're CONTINUING to steal information. Even if they were trying to get across some message, it's been lost on the fact that they're CONTINUING to steal.

 

At least back in the American Revolution, Washington didn't continue killing british people after the war was won. That's what Lulzsec is doing though. Even though they've put out the message, it all doesn't mater because they're pushing it too far.

 

If they wanted their message to stick, they have to stop all of the hacking and let it sink in, as opposed to continually striking at the wound.

 

I bet PSN will never be hacked again.

 

You might've bet wrong. It's already been hacked twice in succession. Why wouldn't someone do it a third time?

Edited June 21, 2011 by Pendragon

[Shirtless Crackhead]

They'd only do it if Sony didn't learn the lesson of absolute shit network security.

 

What a surprise.

[Brit]

You might've bet wrong. It's already been hacked twice in succession. Why wouldn't someone do it a third time?

 

Then obviously, Sony didn't intend to learn anything from their experience, did they?

 

However, after doing research, I've found that you've misinterpreted the facts. PSN was hacked ONCE. It was subject to a DDoS (which is not hacking), then officially hacked (which is when Sony brought it down). After Sony brought it back up, PSN has not been hacked a second time, however, other Sony divisions have been. Sony Music and Sony Pictures, to name a couple. Those divisions have nothing to do with Sony Computer Entertainment, other than being under the same umbrella company. That does not excuse their inability to secure their systems.

[Magnus]

They've stolen information and claimed they released it all.

 

Then, in future manifestos, they said "OH WAIT WE DIDN'T ACTUALLY RELEASE IT ALL.".

 

Yes, due to limited resources or not wanting to release credit card information directly since that would just hurt their appearance even more. They explained why they didn't, and with their track record of not lying about what they've been doing, there's no reason not to believe them.

 

And no, believing what they say doesn't make me support them, or have bent over backwards and left all my passwords identical on every website ever. I just trust them to do what they keep saying they're going to, since that's exactly what they've been doing.

 

Also, Brit, it was Sony's website that was DDoS'd.

[Shirtless Crackhead]

Besides there's always the questionable nature that Sony was releasing info after getting hacked to make lulzsec look worse than they are.

 

Who knows?!

[Brit]

Also, Brit, it was Sony's website that was DDoS'd.

 

http://d.pr/nD60

That was my source. It just said "PSN and Playstation Websites...", so I took it to mean the service and related websites. I clicked through to their source and see what you mean.

 

Either way, the statement is still mostly correct. First was a DDoS, then there was hacking. PSN was hacked once.

[Pendragon]

Yes, due to limited resources or not wanting to release credit card information directly since that would just hurt their appearance even more

 

That doesn't excuse the fact that they lied. They're already stealing from people, how would that further hurt their appearance in ANY way? "OH THESE GUYS ARE TAKING A BUNCH OF CRAP, BUT THEY LEFT THE CREDIT CARDS THEY MUST BE NICE GUYS". That already gives them a horrible track record of trustworthiness.

 

Here's what Lulzsec SHOULD have done:

 

Hack a few websites, release a hundred or so accounts, then let it fly. Everyone would get the message. BUT NO. They're continuing to steal data, even from well protected websites. Why are you punishing the consumer for what the company does? Hmm?

 

In my honest opinion, I'll only trust them when they stop hacking and compensate EVERY SINGLE person who suffered from their attacks. I don't wanna hear any of this "SOME MUST SUFFER FOR THE GREATER GOOD" bullcrap that has been spreading recently. That's NOT how you get a message across. Lulzsec, in their greed and stupidity, seem to have missed that message.

 

Until then, they aren't worthy of trust. And if they refuse to compensate the people who they've made miserable, well they're no better than the corporations that fumble their user data. And thus they have no right to preach about security.

 

Either way, the statement is still mostly correct. First was a DDoS, then there was hacking. PSN was hacked once.

 

 

A DDOS does count as a hack because it's denying service. So that's two strikes.

 

The third was FAR back before Lulzsec, when Geohot and Fail0verflow made a crack to jailbreak PS3's. The jailbroken systems, thanks to Geohot, were modified to be able to access PSN despite bans on the consoles. Furthermore, they could unban themselves and then ban others, a practice Geohot himself personally encouraged to "punish the man".

 

The way I see it, that's more than enough to not trust Geohot, Lulzsec, or whatever other douchebags have gotten into this.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Pendragon

[Brit]

A DDOS does count as a hack because it's denying service. So that's two strikes.

 

A Denial of Service is not a hack. That's EXACTLY the same as:

Not being served at a bar because you're already drunk.

Police putting a Rhino on your car preventing you from driving.

Your Phone Company/ISP/Power Company/Landlord disconnecting/evicting you for not paying your bills.

 

It's not a hack. It's a denial of service. A hack is gaining access to a system, whether via computerized or social methods. A DDoS doesn't grant access to anything. It's not a hack.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Brit

[Pendragon]

Alright, I'll grant you that. But the rest of my still holds true.

 

If you steal, you don't deserve any credibility. Lulzsec doesn't deserve any, THAT's for sure.

[Brit]

Alright, I'll grant you that. But the rest of my still holds true.

 

If you steal, you don't deserve any credibility. Lulzsec doesn't deserve any, THAT's for sure.

 

Allow me to provide you with something I learned from my latest issue of Game Informer Magazine:

 

EA Games reverse engineered (read: hacked) the Sega Genesis in order to provide games to the console, due to Sega (and Nintendo) having no interest in third party developers. That's why ALL EA games on the Sega Genesis had the yellow tab on their cartridges. They were illegally making games on the system without a license or dev kit for it. They had to BULLY Sega into working with them. What's worse, the Sega rep TOLD them to do this in order to make games.

 

Just because it's illegal doesn't make it WRONG. Some other things that were/are illegal, but not wrong:

Women voting. (WAS illegal)

Black people voting. (WAS illegal)

Suicide. (Yes, this is illegal in many places)

Euthanasia. (Still illegal in some states)

Marijuana use/possession. (Illegal in most states)

Driving without insurance. (Why is this illegal?)

Edited June 21, 2011 by Brit

[Pendragon]

EA Games reverse engineered (read: hacked) the Sega Genesis in order to provide games to the console, due to Sega (and Nintendo) having no interest in third party developers. That's why ALL EA games on the Sega Genesis had the yellow tab on their cartridges. They were illegally making games on the system without a license or dev kit for it. They had to BULLY Sega into working with them. What's worse, the Sega rep TOLD them to do this in order to make games.

 

How does this prove your point? This proves that EA is in the wrong. What they did was illegal no matter how you look at it. And they never made a good game, so that just further reinforces how that backfires on your point.

 

Just because it's illegal doesn't make it WRONG. Some other things that were/are illegal, but not wrong:

Women voting.

Black people voting.

Suicide.

 

You could use the same exact argument to justify pedophilia, or stealing from Walmart, or shooting up the office. "They may be illegal, but they're not wrong! Stop oppressing us boo hoo!"

 

You HAVE to draw the line somewhere. Women voting may have been illegal, but you could CLEARLY see it was a violation of human rights. Same with black people voting. Suicide, meh, touchy subject and doesn't add to the discussion. Euthanasia also has nothing to do with this. It should be a state mandated thing, and people would abuse it by killing animals left and right if it was just made legal on the spot. Marijuana should be illegal until the populace can be trusted with not going out driving while high. It's exactly why alcohol is still such a problem with so many people. Driving without insurance is just so you have cover incase you crash into a government building or hurt someone else.

 

Hacking and stealing information isn't bettering some greater cause, or showing equal rights to people. It's WRONG. Why does nobody see that? YOU CAN'T JUSTIFY IT. THEY'RE NOT FIGHTING SOME EVIL GOVERNMENT WHO IS RAPING CHILDREN AND FORCING SLAVES TO COMMIT BESTIALITY. They're taking from people, and destroying lives.

 

And I'm frankly sickened that you had the gall to compare voting rights to some script kiddies taking information. You may as well call me Hitler because I'm not fighting "the man". You've already made Godwin roll over in his grave.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Pendragon

[Falco]

god damn you have no ability to judge like a human being, brit's saying that just because some things are illegal that doesnt make them wrong, but that doesn't mean that it applies to everything, these are the moments in which your judgement can help you out, that's the difference between you and a machine

[Pendragon]

Exactly. There are moments like that when being illegal doesn't make it wrong, BUT THIS ISN'T ONE OF THOSE TIMES. That's called proper judgement. Edited June 21, 2011 by Pendragon

[Falco]

i get the feeling you think lulzsec is doing more than what it's actually doing

[Brit]

How does this prove your point? This proves that EA is in the wrong. What they did was illegal no matter how you look at it. And they never made a good game, so that just further reinforces how that backfires on your point.

Sure they have. If they hadn't, they wouldn't still be making those same games today. Almost twenty years later. Besides, they tried the legal route. They asked Nintendo what they wanted to enable them to make games. Nintendo wanted complete creative control, 60% of profits, and the option to release games WHEN THEY WANTED TO. Sega just had no interest in 3rd party developers. EA called Sega and was told "Maybe you should reverse engineer it" /shrug

 

You could use the same exact argument to justify pedophilia, or stealing from Walmart, or shooting up the office. "They may be illegal, but they're not wrong! Stop oppressing us boo hoo!"

No you can't because those things are wrong, even if they were legal. I can provide you with a list of things that are wrong but legal as well.

You HAVE to draw the line somewhere. Women voting may have been illegal, but you could CLEARLY see it was a violation of human rights. Same with black people voting. Suicide, meh, touchy subject and doesn't add to the discussion.

It adds perfectly to the discussion as it is something that is part of my point that not all illegal things are wrong. If I want to end it all in my home, what right does a police officer have to electrocute or shoot me? This is MY gun on MY property against MY temple or in MY mouth. Where does that fuck get off?

Hacking and stealing information isn't bettering some greater cause, or showing equal rights to people. It's WRONG.

 

Why does nobody see that? YOU CAN'T JUSTIFY IT.

 

And I'm frankly sickened that you had the gall to compare voting rights to some script kiddies taking information. You may as well call me Hitler because I'm not fighting "the man". You've already made Godwin roll over in his grave.

Why would we call you Hitler? He just killed 6 million people for nothing. It doesn't even have anything to do with this conversation. Nothing at all. No party involved is acting like Nazi Germany. Hitler didn't defend against anyone (except the other countries) or steal anything from anyone. He just killed a bunch (understatement of the century) of people.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Brit

[Pendragon]

Sure they have. If they hadn't, they wouldn't still be making those same games today. Almost twenty years later. Besides, they tried the legal route. They asked Nintendo what they wanted to enable them to make games. Nintendo wanted complete creative control, 60% of profits, and the option to release games WHEN THEY WANTED TO. Sega just had no interest in 3rd party developers. EA called Sega and was told "Maybe you should reverse engineer it" /shrug

 

Well, the business world is fickle. Alot of stuff done there can be considered wrong or not. So things are different there. The reason it doesn't apply here is because this isn't a feud between corporations. It's between Lulzsec and the common people. And unlike EA, Lulzsec has the BALLS to claim they have the high ground, when it comes to morals. THAT is where I draw the line. If they just shut up and admit they're stealing, then I wouldn't mind it.

 

No you can't because those things are wrong, even if they were legal. I can provide you with a list of things that are wrong but legal as well.

 

Ah, but now you're imposing your own opinions on others. Go to any forum of pedophiles or animal lovers and they'll give you a billion reasons why they feel sex with animals is natural or sex with kids is natural.

 

Of course, I don't agree with them in the slightest, but as you can see, they feel it is right. And all you're doing is saying "NO MY OPINION IS BETTER". When it really isn't. You claim they're "wrong" but wrong is subjective when it comes to matters like that.

 

Also, under your logic, it would be perfectly okay to steal from Walmart because "they have terrible security" and "they deserved it". There is NO difference between stealing from Walmart and stealing private information. It's exactly the same: Goods are being taken without the consent of the owner. Bonus points if the Walmart thieves go online and claim they stole it with intent to show everyone how bad their security is.

 

It adds perfectly to the discussion as it is something that is part of my point that not all illegal things are wrong. If I want to end it all in my home, what right does a police officer have to electrocute or shoot me? This is MY gun on MY property against MY temple or in MY mouth. Where does that fuck get off?

 

The entire discussion is stupid anyway because if you wanna commit suicide, nobody is gonna stop you. It's not like Minority Report, where they can halt the bullet from leaving the gun by intercepting you beforehand. You may as well argue whether or not religion is "right or wrong" and that'll attract Raor here like a shark to a bloodbath.

 

Why would we call you Hitler? He just killed 6 million people for nothing. It doesn't even have anything to do with this conversation. Nothing at all. No party involved is acting like Nazi Germany. Hitler didn't defend against anyone (except the other countries) or steal anything from anyone. He just killed a bunch (understatement of the century) of people.

 

Well, it's common to start saying crap about me when you run out of arguments. See: the last thread.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Pendragon

[Shirtless Crackhead]

What credibility is LulsSec trying to get?

[Pendragon]

They're trying to paint themselves as freedom fighters who fight "the man" and they want everyone to forgive them instantly despite everything they've stolen. And I'm sickened that so many people support them. It's EXACTLY like when other hackers brought PSN down.

 

We're supposed to be pissed at Sony for having horrible security AND be pissed at the hackers for stealing so much information. Unfortunately, because certain people were blinded by sure fanbias, they only did the former. And I feel Lulzsec is blinding EVERYONE with alot of bias against corporations. And it's sad, because lulzsec is only screwing over people, not the "corporations" they're making a big war with.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Pendragon

[Brit]

Well, the business world is fickle. Alot of stuff done there can be considered wrong or not. So things are different there. The reason it doesn't apply here is because this isn't a feud between corporations. It's between Lulzsec and the common people. And unlike EA, Lulzsec has the BALLS to claim they have the high ground, when it comes to morals. THAT is where I draw the line. If they just shut up and admit they're stealing, then I wouldn't mind it.

Doesn't change the fact that they broke the law and exist now because of it.

 

Ah, but now you're imposing your own opinions on others. Go to any forum of pedophiles or animal lovers and they'll give you a billion reasons why they feel sex with animals is natural or sex with kids is natural.

 

Of course, I don't agree with them in the slightest, but as you can see, they feel it is right. And all you're doing is saying "NO MY OPINION IS BETTER". When it really isn't. You claim they're "wrong" but wrong is subjective when it comes to matters like that.

It's wrong because the victim (whether a child or a dog) has no understanding of what is going on. A grown man has a much greater understanding of sex than a little girl. A dog has NO understanding of sex, only procreation. It's wrong, no matter what their rationale is. It's not my opinion that's it's wrong. It's my opinion that it's DISGUSTING, but wrong in those cases is not subjective. It's the same as sex with a vegetable.

Also, under your logic, it would be perfectly okay to steal from Walmart because "they have terrible security" and "they deserved it". There is NO difference between stealing from Walmart and stealing private information. It's exactly the same: Goods are being taken without the consent of the owner. Bonus points if the Walmart thieves go online and claim they stole it with intent to show everyone how bad their security is.

I can agree with that.

The entire discussion is stupid anyway because if you wanna commit suicide, nobody is gonna stop you. It's not like Minority Report, where they can halt the bullet from leaving the gun by intercepting you beforehand. You may as well argue whether or not religion is "right or wrong" and that'll attract Raor here like a shark to a bloodbath.

They will shoot you or taser you to disable you and prevent you from harming yourself.

Well, it's common to start saying crap about me when you run out of arguments. See: the last thread.

I've already told you that I don't need to.

[Pendragon]

Doesn't change the fact that they broke the law and exist now because of it.

 

Which is why I'm sickened that nobody took this issue up sooner. Because nobody stopped EA's illegal activities, they're alive and well making horrible games and DRM services. But that's getting off topic so I'll stop there.

 

 

It's wrong because the victim (whether a child or a dog) has no understanding of what is going on. A grown man has a much greater understanding of sex than a little girl. A dog has NO understanding of sex, only procreation. It's wrong, no matter what their rationale is. It's not my opinion that's it's wrong. It's my opinion that it's DISGUSTING, but wrong in those cases is not subjective. It's the same as sex with a vegetable.

 

Okay, then let's say that Lulzsec is comparable to a rapist who rapes a man/woman old enough to understand it. Then he has the complacency to say "well, it serves you right for not carrying a gun around" before going on a moral parade on how they're teaching the world how to be a better place.

 

They just don't have the right to do that. It feels like they're being pompous.

 

They will shoot you or taser you to disable you and prevent you from harming yourself.

 

And I can't argue with that, because it just sounds so odd. Definitely a situation where one's judgement should decide whether it's right or not. but it definitely wouldn't be okay for someone ELSE to shoot you without your consent.

I've already told you that I don't need to.

 

As long as it doesn't devolve to that, then I'm cool.

[Harakiri Tiger]

... it would be perfectly okay to steal from Walmart because "they have terrible security" and "they deserved it". There is NO difference between stealing from Walmart and stealing private information. It's exactly the same: Goods are being taken without the consent of the owner. Bonus points if the Walmart thieves go online and claim they stole it with intent to show everyone how bad their security is.

 

That's actually a pretty good comparison, I feel. The only difference is that stealing from Wal-Mart wouldn't likely harm the average civilian as much as stealing private information would. They still both have far reaching effects, but one (stealing private information) causes a significant bit more collatoral damage than the other way around. I don't like people that can't control the collatoral damage they might potentially cause.