YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 isn't that like saying dark souls is a MMORPG tho steve? idk cuz i havent played destiny so I could be way off but I think that's kind of what keanu is getting at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachis Posted August 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 Dark Souls is nothing like an MMO simply because it is largely an adventure that you play on your own. The capability to play with others isn't what makes an MMO what it is. What sets MMO's apart as a genre is the fact that you are forced into a world with many people. In Ata's defense, the Beta played like a hybrid of a single player FPS experience and an MMO. However, Bungie themselves have gone over and stated how much more ambitious this game is going to be in comparison to the Beta. Either way, in the Beta you had a central hub with people populating it and then the open areas that you launch to were usually populated with enough people to make a fire squad (4 total). You didn't get much of a choice. People were there and this was just the beta phase of the game. The game clearly is giving the player every chance to not play on their own and from what I've read thus far it would simply be impossible for Ata to complete this game as such. He's just in an unfortunate predicament with this game. He likes it, but he doesn't want to be told what to do with it and I don't blame him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 fk it keanu let's just play ffl2 over and over again instead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUMERIAN BLOOD GOD Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 Well it's definitely different from any MMO I've ever played where you had a lot of options with what to do besides quests/missions. Idk if it's gonna change in full release but nobody in the tower could even talk with each other outside of the emotes or PSN/Live messages. MMOs I think of really push the social element and in Destiny I only heard like 2 other people talk the entire beta. There isn't much to do in the tower either besides visit shops. What's the point of having this big hub where players can gather if there's no reason for them to interact with each other or spend any time there once they've got their loadout? No crafting, no guilds/guild halls, no real side quests. It's hard to justify spending $60-$80 on a game based on promises from the developer, especially when you disagree with an element of it pretty strongly. I enjoyed the beta but I wouldn't call this an MMO and I don't think it needs always online. I think it is definitely meant to be played online but there's no reason it couldn't have an offline aspect in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakuhatsu Pengin Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 i dont consider destiny an mmo the only thing that makes it an mmo is that u see lots of people itd be like calling gta online an mmo cuz its massive and multiplayer and online but its rly not an mmo except for firesquads, the entire beta could be solo'd unless they do some major mechanics changes as the story progresses, the rest of the game is likely to follow suit give me bots for firesquads cuz im pretty sure theyre more reliable than the avg player and then the game doesnt need online at all I'm just in an unfortunate predicament with this game. I like it, but I don't want to be told what to do with it and I don't blame me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ataraxis Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) It came off as endorsement more than a defense. I don't know how much work they're actually putting in, and tbh I don't care until I see how it actually turns out when it comes to that out of the box experience. It's completely possible to put in a lot of work and get poor results if the idea or execution is flawed. The fact is in terms of actual (not repeated) content most of what I played was story missions that could have perfectly suitable offline versions. That aspect felt more single player based, and hell, I did play some of them solo. Even strike missions were suited to SP, as evidenced when dudes bailed and I was fine to finish them on my own. I know it was a beta, but in contrast to what you just said they apparently don't have plans to change much before release: http://www.gamespot....h/1100-6421577/ PD's comparison to Dark Souls and your objection to calling that an MMO works extremely well for me actually. Calling it an MMO based on some strong multiplayer aspects is what makes the tag seem tacked on. The central hub showed a bunch of other players but I wasn't forced to interact with them, and I already covered the other missions and how they felt more like/fine as single player experiences. The lone explore mission was the only part where it seemed to fit both in concept and execution. I agree with you when you say it played like a hybrid, and that's why I mentioned examples of games that incorporated online and offline play, and also why I feel those features are well suited here. The future and ambitions are all well and good, but talking about the here and now the current level of what I saw as MMO oriented play seems too low to justify forced online (let alone treat it as a given, which is my point of contention here). tl;dr [nob's post] At this point all I've shown is a disagreement in how they're going about it, and apprehensiveness towards actually buying into what they're doing because of that. I'm not knocking what I played or its potential. Quite the opposite, really. You've misunderstood if you think otherwise (which you seem to based on your last remark). Edited August 22, 2014 by facebataraxis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harakiri Tiger Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 That's like saying WoW isn't an MMO cuz you played the free trial that lets you go to L20 and you can do it all solo or in a small party, which is how you're expected to do it in WoW until you get to around L18 and do your first major instance (which most people skip and just keep soloing). It's all story quests too. Most MMOs are like this from the get-go, barring the one thing Ninety mentioned about most MMOs allowing a lot more socialization from the get go as it's an important aspect of MMOs. Outside of the PvP, Destiny felt like any standard MMO's early-game to me. No different than FF14 story missions that you can solo to L20, at which point you finally get a genuine mission where you have to party (Ifrit). Saying that bots would be better is both mildly true in general for MMOs (which is pretty funny) and also a disaster at endgame, that's like trying to do Bahamut's Coil in FF14 with bots at endgame cuz you could use AI bots to do all missions up to L20 more effectively than using random people. Sure it's true that AI serve you better in general play for almost any game, but using them for endgame raids or lategame dungeons is probably suicide in general. Even games like PSO2 aren't MMOs by most of your definitions because you can solo most of the content, especially basically every single thing in the first half of the game. AI would certainly be better than most of those weaboo players. Comparing the early game of an MMO to the late game dungeons and end-game endless raiding isn't really a good idea. It's especially silly to try to extrapolate the first half of the game onto the last half of the game, when the last half of the game is intended to take up 90% of your playtime in that game. It's also why I tend to not play endgame in MMOs but highly enjoy early game. I like the single player feeling and growth and stuff, but highly dislike the endgame grinding and social dependence on crazy hardcore aspies and addicts. Anyway, it sounds more like you guys are trying to rationalize away how MMOs aren't MMOs because you can do the majority of the early game solo, it is mostly centered around solo play, and because the players you encountered were either dumb or socially dead. I know you think you're saying Destiny is like that and most MMOs aren't (so it's not an MMO), but the thing is that every MMO is exactly that experience. Your arguments quite literally apply to nearly every single MMO I have ever played, barring Ninety's about having more socialization options and side content. i dont consider wow an mmo the only thing that makes it an mmo is that u see lots of people itd be like calling ff14 an mmo cuz its massive and multiplayer and online but its rly not an mmo except for guildleves, the entire free trial could be solo'd unless they do some major mechanics changes as the story progresses, the rest of the game is likely to follow suit give me bots for guildleves cuz im pretty sure theyre more reliable than the avg player and then the game doesnt need online at all ...It's hard to justify spending $60-$80 on a game based on promises from the developer, especially when you disagree with an element of it pretty strongly. I enjoyed the free trial but I wouldn't call WoW an MMO and I don't think it needs always online. I think it is definitely meant to be played online but there's no reason it couldn't have an offline aspect in my opinion. The fact is in terms of actual (not repeated) content most of what I played was story missions that could have perfectly suitable offline versions. That aspect felt more single player based, and hell, I did play some of them solo. Even party quests in WoW were suited to SP, as evidenced when dudes bailed and I was fine to finish them on my own. I know it was a free trial, but in contrast to what you just said they apparently don't have plans to change much before release... My point is, you don't know enough about the content that you get available to you on full release to make a judgment call on whether it has strong MMO aspects or not. None of the early game has to change on full release. I'd expect it not to. The idea that the early game has to change for the midgame/lategame to be different is silly. It may or may not extrapolate out into the rest of the game. You might have an almost fully solo-able game (like WoW) or you might have your first brick wall at L10 and not realize it cuz it wasn't included in the beta/demo and you're forced to party with 3+ other retards who can't aim and like to jump off cliffs in the middle of a bossfight you have to beat to progress in the game (like FF14). Betas are great for judging mechanics and graphics and general presentation, they're not very good at judging content progression or content balance. Extrapolating the beta/demo onto the rest of the game is super common for people to do on MMO forums (like FF14 before release), which is why I bothered to post about this. I literally see this all the time, but with a slightly different spin on it. Instead of whether it's an MMO or not it's whether it is a WoW clone or not, too hard or not, grindy or not, etc. We can't really say whether it'll end up being an MMO or not in spirit until it has come out. My advice: DO NOT BUY THE GAME ON RELEASE I certainly won't be, w. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakuhatsu Pengin Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 im sayin it doesnt feel like an mmo it feels like a generic fps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Py687 Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 It doesn't seem MMO because outside of the Crucible you don't interact with that many people at once, even in the field. Your fireteam can have a maximum of three people per mission (or six as I recall seeing, somewhere, somehow). It's missing a lot of social aspects, and as far as we know trading with other players is still missing. Those aren't things found only in the early game, those are features Bungie has touted to be consistent throughout the whole game. Whether or not they change their minds is the question. I.e. It's an fps with mmo elements, not an mmo with fps elements. Having some mmo elements doesn't truly justify always-online when--this sounds redundant--the core of the game is not an mmo. On the other hand, you could view always-online as part of the MMO experience. So there's that.im sayin it doesnt feel like an mmo it feels like a generic fps I don't have anything to say about being able to solo the story. I think Niji is right tho about not extrapolating the beta onto the rest of the game. There may be better dungeons, more things to explore, fireteams being flat-out required by game if not by difficulty.We can't really say whether it'll end up being an MMO or not in spirit until it has come out. My advice: DO NOT BUY THE GAME ON RELEASE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harakiri Tiger Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 That is true about WoW as well. You don't interact with people much at all until the very end-game and you rarely form a party of more than 4 people, going up to roughly 4-6 for a dungeon if for some reason you decide to do a dungeon before you're max level. Outside of dungeons you are basically solo on nearly empty maps. I implore you to try playing WoW sometime on the free trial. See how much time you spend socially interacting with people and partying if you don't go out of your way to enact it forcibly yourself. Sometimes you get lucky and run into good people, but most of the time you'll be surprised at how much non-attention and no-coop play you get in an MMO. FF14 is probably the most successful recent MMO I've seen that has gotten people to actually party together, though they rarely actually socialized in any sense of the word while doing it. The success had to do with EXP share mechanics, nothing else. Anyway, people who do dungeons before max level are a tiny percentage of WoW players. The few people that do dungeons do so using the dungeon finder which parties you with totally random people from anywhere in the game and teleports you to the dungeon entrance, from which you then proceed to be as socially detached as seems to be possible while doing a simple dungeon. MMOs are not the co-op fantasy concept that people think of. That was pre-2006 MMOs. Ever since around 2006-2008 MMOs have changed very significantly and there's little in this game that makes it feel different from any standard MMO of today. While saying this game is going to be an MMO is silly, so is saying it's not an MMO. There are no distinct traits defining it either way. It plays and progresses exactly like any 2012 MMO as of right now, except it has guns. I don't even know what the hell you guys think MMOs are right now. Maybe it's cuz I've hit up so many random ass MMOs over the years, but there's nothing special or impressively co-opy/big player dependent about them until late game. I think your ideas of an MMO are generally faulty to begin with. There's also no such thing as a game that is just an MMO, in regards to this MMO elements thing. PSO2 is DMC/Mohan with MMO elements, RO is Diablo with MMO elements, EQ is a western RPG with MMO elements, FF11 is a JRPG with MMO elements, AO is a tactics game with MMO elements, EVE is a spaceship game with MMO elements. There's no such thing as a pure MMO thing. What exactly would your MMO with FPS elements look like, if it existed? Are you sure that's an MMO and not just Diablo with Battlefield FPS elements? Would you require that 50% of the gameplay necessitated a guild of 8-12 people to do any missions or progress in the game, cuz that effectively rules out every MMO on the market from being an MMO. I suppose the closest thing I can come up with for an "MMO with FPS elements" is something like 50 dudes on a map all waiting for a couple boars to spawn cuz they all have the shoot 12 boars with your new assault rifle quest. Then they go collect 10 yellow flowers from the weapons cache and armory for their sergeant's wedding quest. Sounds splendid, incredibly fun, and very massively multiplayer. It's always online too, so that puts the O on the MMO. You know what that actually sounds like? A generic ass Korean free-to-play MMO designed to take your cash. With guns. Trading may or may not be missing, so might an auction house. Those are not necessary for a free trial, which is what beta/demo was. I doubt trading is not available in the game in some form unless they plan on going the Diablo 3 route for endgame, but trading is also not very important for most MMOs. Hardly anyone trades, just buddies that know each other from out of the game really. People just use the auction house if there is one or grind to max level on whatever gear they have. Trades are things Diablo style games tend to focus on, auction houses and general shops are MMO territory. Trades are handy, but not really an MMO thing anymore. Especially since the era of Bind on Equip and Bind on Pickup became the staple for item drops of any significance. Not having an auction house would make it somewhat annoying, but with Diablo 3 pioneering the concept of absolutely zero trades ever and still retaining a relatively large playerbase it wouldn't surprise me if other games follow. Especially since BoE and BoP items have become the absolute norm in so many games. Btw, I'm not talking about whether it should or shouldn't have always online. I'm talking about this wonky idea of what an MMO is. It's fantasy to think they're something they are not. Whether it needs or doesn't need online will depend on the lategame and endgame content and whether it has brick wall content like FF14 does while leveling, which I doubt anyone here has any confirmable foreknowledge of. ----- What the game is lacking is general socializing aspects though, yes. Ninety was pretty spot on about that. Things like a functional chat and guildchat system, emotes/actions, easy buddy management, the ability to show off lightshow skills in front of buddies for no reason, and the general ability to enjoy idling with your buddies (which is what socializing mostly involves). Those things have basically nothing to do with the general complaints leveled at this game not being an MMO tho. So far you have mission progression/gameplay and trading, which are not traits that deal with socializing much unless you're one of those rare ass people that still spams general chat with your item deals until you get banned by mods for spamming. Is it an MMO? No idea. We'll find out when we see what the endgame is like, until then it's up in the air. I will probably wait until nob has bought the game and played through it to nearly max level before I actually consider buying the game, tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakuhatsu Pengin Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 i will do that ya i feel u on ur feels on mmo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Py687 Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 There's also no such thing as a game that is just an MMO, in regards to this MMO elements thing. PSO2 is DMC/Mohan with MMO elements, RO is Diablo with MMO elements, EQ is a western RPG with MMO elements, FF11 is a JRPG with MMO elements, AO is a tactics game with MMO elements, EVE is a spaceship game with MMO elements. There's no such thing as a pure MMO thing. What exactly would your MMO with FPS elements look like, if it existed? Are you sure that's an MMO and not just Diablo with Battlefield FPS elements? Would you require that 50% of the gameplay necessitated a guild of 8-12 people to do any missions or progress in the game, cuz that effectively rules out every MMO on the market from being an MMO. I suppose the closest thing I can come up with for an "MMO with FPS elements" is something like 50 dudes on a map all waiting for a couple boars to spawn cuz they all have the shoot 12 boars with your new assault rifle quest. Then they go collect 10 yellow flowers from the weapons cache and armory for their sergeant's wedding quest. Sounds splendid, incredibly fun, and very massively multiplayer. It's always online too, so that puts the O on the MMO. You know what that actually sounds like? A generic ass Korean free-to-play MMO designed to take your cash. With guns.I thought they'd marketed this game mostly as a fps-version of mmorpgs. The generic Korean shit sounds exactly what I have in mind when I hear fps mmorpg. Which I'm glad Destiny isn't like, but still. The only part that actually felt mmorpg to me was fighting the spider tank with its shitton of health. Pre-2006 MMOs sound a lot more attractive from what you describe. I wouldn't mind always-online as much if it was a PC release. I just don't always have or want an Ethernet cable attached to my consoles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harakiri Tiger Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 Pre-2006 was basically the glory days of MMOs, yeah. Roughly 1998 - 2006. People actually interacted with each other and the concept of end-game raiding barely existed at all. They were just a nice form of social gaming with some crazy LARPers and super nerds/mega aspies interspersed in the pack. PSO2 and FF14 are pretty good recent MMOs tho. The only ones I've really been able to enjoy in more recent times anyway. All the old ones have gone to shit due to Free-to-Play models destroying the game economy/balance and server support. EVE is still god-status, but enjoying EVE really depends on your personality and natural motivations. The problem with that joke generic kMMO I listed is that it's boring as hell and no one sane would want to play that. Outside of for giggles at the strange and mundane quest ideas. It's also not really an MMO as much as a bunch of people playing single-player together in the same space, which is what a lot of MMOs have actually devolved into. The only thing generally multiplayer about them is the auction house and you seeing other people running around but not interacting with them. They might as well be ghosts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakuhatsu Pengin Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 They might as well be ghosts. this is a good reason why i dont like mmos i also strongly dislike wowclone mmo combat tho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harakiri Tiger Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 The only reason I can enjoy them nowadays is cuz you guys get on and we make guilds and stuff, otherwise it's a weird ass climate on those games. I will say tho, that the JP players on PSO2 were surprisingly nice and liked to party easy and talked while partied. It reminded me a lot of when I played FF11. WoW combat is not that fun, yeah. Especially with how skills have been super genericized to cater to all the arena nonsense. You just faceroll the same keys in the same way over and over and over. Everyone has the same nonsense skills too with a different color to the graphic. That's probably the only other thing multiplayer about MMOs nowadays too. PvP arenas. When your game can't be fun in any other way, just tack on PvP arenas and hope for the best. They demolished WoW gameplay with it. Destiny already has that with the PvP FPS option, which is quite literally just another generic FPS game. It'll probably end up affecting class skill balance heavily too. You can tell I have a super sore ass when it comes to MMOs, btw. At least I'm hoping you can tell. Cuz I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachis Posted August 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 Yeah you seem to have been pounded a time or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) you also seem to have been disappointed by MMOs before, niji :rimshot: Edited August 23, 2014 by BISHOP MUSHROOM TIP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ataraxis Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 (edited) That's a pretty good rundown. Good read and thx for that knowledge. I was trying to be careful with a lot of my wording, saying "I'm not sure," and "seems like," because as with anyone else, I've got no idea how it'll go down as the game goes on. With all the talk of how it wasn't going to be quite like anything we'd seen before, it would've been nice if the beta made a more convincing argument about some of the elements that are in doubt, but they can't just give away the whole game. I get that, but it doesn't do anything to ease my apprehension or doubt. Apprehension, doubt, and disagreement basically sums up where I'm at with all of it right now, and I don't think that's unreasonable at all as a consumer who hasn't seen the finished product. Edited August 23, 2014 by facebataraxis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 just wait til after launch to make a decision bscly no shame in waiting it out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harakiri Tiger Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 Yeah, we have nob as a test dummy. He'll buy the game on release and play it to finish in like 4 hours, trust me. Then he'll start a guild called NOB COMPANY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakuhatsu Pengin Posted August 26, 2014 Report Share Posted August 26, 2014 EVERY TIME Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakuhatsu Pengin Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 EXCLUSIVE CONTENT FOR PS3/PS4 UNTIL FALL 2015 RIP MANGUS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirtless Crackhead Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 I thought this game was a PS exclusive game. Are there any big-title PS exclusive games? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakuhatsu Pengin Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 bloodborne ps4 exclusive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 Bloodborne the only game thats gonna matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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