Armored Core 5 Discussion

[Harakiri Tiger]

That's not the point, the point is that you could pick up weapons after dropping them and this:

 

That tells me that you guys never played pvp in AC3/SL.

 

Lololololololol.

[Terminator98]

I did not need to drop things down, only if they were empty... Now I do recall that there was the "picking up weapons" option. It was activable and deactivable.

 

Anyways, I was to busy killing with howtizers and KRSW to notice I could take a gun... which would be no use as it'll usually be an empty one...

[Harakiri Tiger]

Not always.

[Alex]

It might just be me but weapons that can be dropped and picked up seems like a great concept, I haven't played the older ones competitively, but dropping a weapon at the beginning of the round to increase your speed, and coming back for it later seems like an idea similar to being able to resupply/change loadout, that's definitely something viable, IMO, but since everyone's saying it was dumb, maybe it wasn't so viable?

 

In regards to AC5 mean, with the "overed weapons" it'd really suck, especially for the big chainsaw wielders, seems like instead of sacrifice defense for big damage(PA Terrorists), you sacrifice offense for big damage, last ditch effort maybe? It would be interesting to be able to have the chainsaw as maybe one or two use, then you can drop it to pick up your weapon again. Unless mobility is really tuned down and it's actually a fair and viable concept for someone to drop all their weapon for a last stand, no moar "autokillacrosshalfthemap" lameness anymore, hopefully

[Adonael]

I think the concept of Overed Weapons is for you to use it if your 100% sure its going to hit. Since the description says it could kill in one hit, it would be probable to make you drop all your weapons. At lest that makes sense to me. I also agree with people wanting old lock boxes, generator system and heat. I like more factures in a game then simply Dodging and killing. Hmm maybe Overed Weapons would have a lock box the size of a key on a keyboard. That would be interesting. Edited February 9, 2010 by Adonael

[Lenin]

I'd rather see them strike a balance between AC1-LR and AC4/fA energy mechanics than just regressing entirely. Maybe I'm biased because I seriously don't want to learn how to boost hop on dual analog, which I'm willing to bet you anything they will keep as the only option.

 

I'd like to see something like AC4/fA mechanics when boosting on the ground, but have you drop to zero fast when you're in the air. Since it's been said that they're trying to create a more realistic in-game environment, this might work as it probably won't be entirely viable to stay on the ground forever and ever; you will occasionally have to fly, but hopefully not able to make permaflight designs with crazy drain boosters on accident. Man, fuck the fA engine.

 

I'll probably be able to live with any engine so long as the old rule of thumb stating "if you can't design, you fucking lose" is revived.

[Harakiri Tiger]

I use dual analog for AC:LR and most people don't really... um... boost hop too much in LR, really. Generally, boost hopping is for when you're not in a good situation and you have no other choice left. Generally, most users are either using OB or boost dashing in short bursts that you occasionally short hop out of to skip the braking animation. Generally, boost hopping is a very beginner level technique for PvP play.

 

Mixing and matching mechanics would be best, though.

[Adonael]

That's more or less what I was aiming for. I don't want it to revert completely, but I don't agree too much with the infinity boost. Its just something that made walking close to pointless.I would like a newer Generator system or at lest something closer to the old one. I would also like to see a more controlled quick boost system too. I think Aiming should some how be more difficult than AC4-FA, that's where the lock box comment comes in. No permaflight sounds good to me too. How about a mix of AC1-LR to AC4 We can leave FA out of this. I didn't like Any of the mechanics in that game, besides you got cool looking white glint parts. I also hope if they add destructible buildings it doesn't lag you off the face of the earth.

 

That's enough speculation and other things out of me. I'll just wait till the new game comes out and hopefully it isn't a flop.

 

On another note: Niji You me LR when I get my PS3 back..Eventually.

[Harakiri Tiger]

Hahaha, I will most definitely play you as long as we can get Kai working.

[Lenin]

... but I don't agree too much with the infinity boost. Its just something that made walking close to pointless ... I would also like to see a more controlled quick boost system too.

 

Hasn't walking always been close to pointless?

 

Anyway, quickboost doesn't need to be controlled. It needs to be sent to hell like the ungodly demon spawn it is.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Lenin

[Harakiri Tiger]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? Running has always been useful. Well, until AC4. Learning proper footwork in AC is always an important step to truly mastering your field of mobility. I'm not joking, btw. It's not mind blowing incredible, but there's important stuff that you can only do while on foot and not using your booster.

 

You need to watch more pre-AC4 fight videos.

[Terminator98]

Edit: I will not affirm anything anymore as I don't think that my experience is as high class as yours. Maybe one day, when I'll get to fight a good AC pilot, I'll learn what you guys are saying Edited February 10, 2010 by Terminator98

[Harakiri Tiger]

You can't OBSJ until you get used to your run/jump motions and you can't juke effectively on the ground unless you run. Boost juking on the ground gains usefulness the closer you get to your opponent, but is never as useful as airborne boost juking. If you're going to use your booster to juke, get to a decent height in the air. Otherwise, you'll want to maintain around 200 meters or greater range and use good running juking.

 

Boost dashing on the ground is more often used to control distance than anything else. And btw, boost hopping does not make you a very hard to hit target. It makes a very, very predictable target. A target that repeatedly puts itself in a specific position where it loses almost all of it's ability to dodge weaponry. The fall out of a boost hop. If you're predictable in your use of the boosters you'll just counter the reason for their existence.

 

Btw, if you can't juke the weapon on the ground, you should probably use cover.

[Pendragon]

Yeah. I can tell you running has saved my life on several matches when I ran out of EN.

 

I'm curious about if AC5 will bring that back.

[Terminator98]

@Niji. I do not see how walking can help you. The prrof, in AC:SL

 

[Harakiri Tiger]

You realize that in that same video you have Watcher getting hit for trying to Boost Hop and not getting hit by ground juking? At that, he does it in one of the worst legtypes for ground juking. For juking in general. Also, I find it interesting that you picked the game with the biggest lockboxes, which happened to be the game that made juking the most difficult to utilize. Oliver successfully did nothing but time his Sawa shots and play keep away.

 

Good match, yo.

 

Btw, I already stated two of the biggest reasons behind running being important in AC-pre4.

 

You can't OBSJ until you get used to your run/jump motions and you can't juke effectively on the ground unless you run.

 

I'd be surprised if any of you can OBSJ in the first place.

[Alex]

Yeah, I've always utilized running on my LR designs, good for fine ground control, EN friendly and, like Niji said, juking on the ground, when I played fA, I wondered why not just make ACs without legs, seems like they're useless anyways, the only walking I've seen on fA was done by Motherwill.

 

It would be nice to be able to utilize your legs to do what nature designed legs for again. I don't think QB needs to be obliterated and cast into the depth of hell either, I think a minature version of AC4 QB is what they need, not the "HAI GUIZ PERFECT PQB CHINA IS REAL NICE COME VISIT SOMETIEMS."

 

Secretly, I love fA as much as the raven generation, the game quenched my need for speed. I'm a little afraid from what we currently know about the game, in regards to speed. I hope this game won't be "oh look I can sit in my house for six hours and design a really good AC, winrar is mine!" I think there should be a balance of battlefield skill, reflex, and design philosophy, because almost anyone can design a decent AC if they commit themselves to it, quite frankly, dumb people tends to have more determination. To really show you are the number one, you should excel in all areas, not just design, or reflex.

[Harakiri Tiger]

A lot of people, including myself, have a bad habit of moving too much in the old games, too. We just keep boosting in little circles or left and right behind objects or constantly staying on the move for no real reason. Treadmilling is a big one. An immense amount of players treadmill sideways in the old games, typically for no gain. Very experienced players, too.

 

One of the few players I've seen that has great control over their movements and emphasizes good footwork is Penguin Deus. He's not a super tense or overly active player. You'll notice the way he plays always seems in control and you'll notice he utilizes both footwork and boosters while he plays. He's not just constantly in a state of redundant movement, neither is he an OB whore like most of the Kai kids, haha.

 

But yah, AC4/fA effectively removed the need for legs at all. They should have just made every legset into tank legs, but with varying weight and stats. Legs were unused in 4/fA and the only reason they were used were for listed stats and speed modifier, not for any inherent differences between the types besides speed. I think speed modifier was the only inherent difference, actually.

 

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[Terminator98]

OBSJ = OB slide Juke?

 

I'm not familiar with PvP terms. Can you clear this up or just show me a vid of people doing it?

I do move a lot versus AI, but I tend just to play hide and seek versus Humans. (Structure, Born City, Area 51 "That open place with lots of destroyalbe buildings", etc... )

 

 

PD does walk a lot here, but you can see that he also uses his boosters to get around faster.

Also, bunny hopping with some boosters has more value than doing it with others.

 

If you use GULL a lot, I understand why you would find it not as useful.

VULTURE2 and BIRDIE2 change things though, a KRSW and some of the slower velocity shot guns can be avoided by bunny hopping at a close enough range.

 

But then, you might tell me that it's because in AC LR, Everything's inaccurate? X_X

 

Ah hell, let's just let this down. Maybe I should hurry up and set KAI so that i may get a first hand lessn of the way you peeps think. Of course, that's if my ping does not go insane.

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

Walking in pre-AC4 games is great. It's important to keep the drain (and eventually heat) from being an issue and walking is the least commitment-heavy type of movement in the game. It lets you get around with least effort without giving you any control-related penalties. The only drawback is that it takes more concentration and finer control of your machine to really benefit from. Also, many dodging and defensive movements can only be done properly while walking.

 

Here's some good walking: http://www.armoredcore.org//content/view/180/54/

 

As an aside, what makes the Oliver vs Watcher finals from MOC3 so amazing is that Watcher's tank was pretty much the best counter to Oliver's ksaw mid that one could make. He ran the e def heavy arms, e def head, the highest def core, and the e def tank legs + an en shield. All that with the chaingun and gl15. All that against a single k-saw? Noone but Oliver could win that kind of fight. Just too icey.

 

Oliver is the most dominant player I've ever met at AC.

[Harakiri Tiger]

Werd. Watcher vs Unknown. I've found unknown in so many games and I've even caught him a few times in Pokemon Gold.

 

Also, T98. I'm not saying fancy footwork is more important than boosters, but it's a fundamental thing. Most importantly and on-topic, footwork was definitely there pre-AC4. OBSJ is OverBoost Slide Jumping, though OB Juking pre-NX also relied on walking. Even if you only use your AC's feet for a brief amount of time, less than a second in cases like OBSJ, the proper utilization of that footwork is what allows for you to Jump at all out of an OB.

 

Here's a video showcasing some heavy footwork and OBSJ. Yaka wouldn't have been able to do it if he didn't have very good control of his ground movement as well as his booster and overbooster movement. >

 

Note, while I like to mention OBSJ a lot, it's not something that's super amazing game breaking player defining. It's just another fundamental that you need so that you can open up extra avenues of movement while playing.

 

So yah, walking was definitely there before AC4.

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

That rando hit Watcher like 7 times total in that fight with a k-saw. In AA. So great.

[Terminator98]

@AA Vid: I see good walking, but he could've dodge those KRSW shots while bunny hopping as well IMO... The other guy seemed like a random noob as well...

 

d_b

 

Also, I think that I know why I may find walking not as useful. I am aware that ground dodging is much easier with type B controller... I use type A more often. (Read, all the time in LR)

 

@Tourney vid: PD, you should've used your B1G earlier in the first match... XD

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

Thanks for the advice.

[Harakiri Tiger]

I use Type A, exclusively, in NX-LR. That's not an excuse for not learning proper footwork. Uselessly generating heat and wasting energy while putting yourself into a predictable position isn't always ideal. More importantly, you're wasting your own physical energy by repeatedly performing useless motions. It's very easy to get tired when playing with harder competition and it's very, very easy to accidentally fall into a pattern. Especially when you start to get tired. You always want to avoid falling into a predictable pattern, btw.

 

Watcher also might have been hit more often if he didn't use his feet and just stuck to the booster only. You simply, absolutely, can not change direction with a booster as fast as you can with your feet. It isn't possible in any AC game before AC4 without bringing in express parts that let you quick boost. So you need to switch directions with your feet first and then boost. It's all very fast, and happens in a short period of time, but ignoring that step makes you a much easier target to hit.

 

You need to realize that I'm not saying that footwork replaces booster work. It accentuates it. You need to be capable of utilizing all your potential movement in pre-AC4. Boosters are fine and dandy, and will be used a greater portion of the time, but they aren't some end-all-be-all solution. Not in AC2, nor SL, nor LR.

 

I think you would benefit greatly from somewhere around 4-6 hours of either Kai or Ad-Hoc Party experience, at the least.