Armored Core: Verdict Day Discussion

[Rachis]

Nice

[KORTOKtheSTRONG]

how proceeds your conveniance

[Aokiryu89]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9i3ucoUmj1qzjfozo1_500.gif

[Xzit]

Is there going to be a new Ultimate Weapons on Armored Core Verdict Day ? and how many of them ?

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

342 of them!

[Tidus Klein]

WOO AC VD!!

 

I can see people over using the operator mode now

[Liarbird]

We don't know yet

 

was an interesting watch.

[Aokiryu89]

WOO AC VD!!

 

I can see people playing the game now.

 

FIXED

[exogen]

Although there is a slight increase in smoothness, I see from these videos more of the same lame brain boost, physics and weapon mechanics. Notice how there still isn't anything that allows for constant, concistent, and reliable twitch dodging. You can dodge something things, sure, but you can still get hit randomly by stuff and with the fact that some weapons can just take your armor down to nothing in like 1 second, the possiblity of you just getting randomed out is higher than in a game that allows for more skillfull dodging i.e. AC4 and prior games.

 

Couple that with the fact that there is no way to circle strafe people with HP, and it is to easy to regain a lock or create ranges gaps that force you to relock, means that the same problems I hated from 5 are still present.

 

Basically what that all boils down to is that AC5 is more of a damage race sort of game.

Edited May 27, 2013 by exogen

[Nomrah]

Although there is a slight increase in smoothness, I see from these videos more of the same lame brain boost, physics and weapon mechanics. Notice how there still isn't anything that allows for constant, concistent, and reliable twitch dodging. You can dodge something things, sure, but you can still get hit randomly by stuff and with the fact that some weapons can just take your armor down to nothing in like 1 second, the possiblity of you just getting randomed out is higher than in a game that allows for more skillfull dodging i.e. AC4 and prior games.

 

Couple that with the fact that there is no way to circle strafe people with HP, and it is to easy to regain a lock or create ranges gaps that force you to relock, means that the same problems I hated from 5 are still present.

 

Basically what that all boils down to is that AC5 is more of a damage race sort of game.

 

Yeah, you summed it up well. I'd never go back to subjecting myself to that again. The game played sloppy.

[Aokiryu89]

Now that I think about it, From Software makes their own game engines don't they?

[Necron]

Oh look it's exogen bitching about the same thing over and over again like we didn't hear him the first 20 times.

[The Fallen Raven]

Now that I think about it, From Software makes their own game engines don't they?

 

Yes, they do.Which is why ACV wasn't that good, they had to spend a lot of time on their own engine.

[exogen]

Oh look it's exogen bitching about the same thing over and over again like we didn't hear him the first 20 times.

 

I not "bitching" though. I'm making a comment with analysis behind it. Can you realistically say that more or less people play ACV as compared to say, AC4, or even FA for that matter? The fall-off in participation says everything. I'm merely commenting on why that is. It's not the boost mechanics that I take issue with only of course, but overall its poor game design and the deminished community speaks volumes to that effect.

 

Also, I gave ACV a huge chance in many many stages of fustration and disapointment, each time tyring time and time again to avail myself on the side of optimism, each time met with the same result

 

Edit: btw I have no idea who you are. I know I have seen your name before but I don't remember who you used to be.

Edited May 27, 2013 by exogen

[YUNG MASTERLESS GLENCOUR]

Necron is the top ranked Raven from Project Phantasma.

[Rachis]

I think he's got a problem with the fact that weapons actually hit you now. Whereas before you could kinda fool the opponent's FCS and really force your opponent to have good timing to hit you. Now it's really a matter of getting a lock-on. I understand this frustration to an extent, but it ultimately means that your play needs to be less sloppy fundamentally because you can't risk getting caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. You need better awareness than you needed before. It's more of a brain game than a reflex game essentially. Run and gunners hate games like that. They just want to do stuff.

[exogen]

I think he's got a problem with the fact that weapons actually hit you now. Whereas before you could kinda fool the opponent's FCS and really force your opponent to have good timing to hit you. Now it's really a matter of getting a lock-on. I understand this frustration to an extent, but it ultimately means that your play needs to be less sloppy fundamentally because you can't risk getting caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. You need better awareness than you needed before. It's more of a brain game than a reflex game essentially. Run and gunners hate games like that. They just want to do stuff.

 

Yeah that is definitely part of it Rach. I admit I do like it better when you could fool the FCS for easily (due to different FCS and boost mechanics/physics). I like that better because it forces the positioning game to add a higher dimention of skill and helps balance out the ranges and weapons used thereof. When I realized dodging was not so prevalent in ACV I figured I would make the best of it and just be the type to sneak up on you and/or flank you out and just never get hit. Unfortunately the game mechanics don't cater to flanking mainly (although not entirely) due to the fact that you can't circle strafe with QB/HB. But even then, if I try to still give the game a chance as it is, the fact that one shot can rape you just makes it random in so many ways. It's not that you risk getting caught at the wrong time, but that, that time will come in almost inevitably and at a random time.

[Aokiryu89]

I honestly do miss being able to fool the FCS with that little strafing technique that was still applicable up to Last Raven. But they killed that by replacing the sudden change in momentum with the goddamn QB.

 

Regardless, you gotta know the map and have a situational awareness similar to that in the older games. Except this time when our energy drains out we can still hop off buildings and what not.

 

I like having that risk of being taken out even with max armor and that risk was their even in the older games. Hopefully the next generation game will just utilize an established engine. With all the other developers churning out crap while using engines that are already available I would really like to see what From could do with Unreal or whatever.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Ogawa Lou

[exogen]

Actually you could still do that in AC4, it just had to be done with BOTH normal boot (in taps and longer durations) and quick boost. But when you combined them togather you could still do the same sort of things, boost hops and all.

 

One of the things that the devolepers said when they looked at AC4 was that they thought it was about damage racing and they wanted ACV to NOT be about damage racing which was why they made it so you die so quick and the armor and weapon types impacting that. But the irony is that ACV is more damage-racish than any armored core to date. It's not even able to be contested that this game has less dodging and is more damage racy than any AC game to gate.

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

acv is only damage-race-esque if you dont use cover at all and dont use the team system to an advantage

 

id say in general ac4 was more of a damage race because you could survive much longer without cover

[exogen]

acv is only damage-race-esque if you dont use cover at all and dont use the team system to an advantage

 

id say in general ac4 was more of a damage race because you could survive much longer without cover

 

That is incorect about AC4. 1rst: is that in AC4 you could dodge and flank for easier, which I mentioned before. Dodging and flanking negate the damage race. Therefore AC4 wasn't a damage race. 2nd: unless we are talking about desert or virtual A, AC4 had plenty of cover. Even virtual B or parts of the ice map (I forget the name) could be used for cover in diferent ways. In fact in AC4 the person who didn't use cover would almost ALWAYS lose assuming we are talking players are equal skill and high level.

 

As for cover use in ACV, cover isn't that effective other than preventing getting hit from snipers and such. At close range you can sort of use cover but it is no were NEAR as effective as it was in AC4 and prior games. The reason is that the boost mechanics just don't allow for effective cover use. So yeah you do need to use it and believe me I whore it, but that doesn't adress the issue. Once you pop out from behind the cover is where the damage race becomes an inevitablity. All cover really does for the most part in ACV is prolong the battle from its inevitable damage race.

[Mom]

I think the boosting mechanics in ac4-acv play a big role in the damage racing element. They're not as delicate as the ps1-ps2 boosting mechanics, which allowed for intricate and ultimate control of your ac. The quick boosting style that had very poor regular boost in ac4-fa, and even moreso the different boosting modes of ac5, felt like you needed to rely more on prediction, anticipation and just out-manuevering an opponent to stay safe from fire. A good example is comparing ac4 and acsl or aclr. I would never-- for the life of me, want to stay out in the open in front of another person's ac line of sight for more than 10 seconds; I know I'd get hammered. In SL or LR, the precision and total control of your ac through the boost mechanics meant that you could do just that while dodging your opponent's shots.

[Pendragon]

Just my two cents:

 

I think AC4 and FA would've benefited from more environmental cover. A few buildings and satellite dishes won't help you when the AC's are flying 1000 miles in the air. I think I liked how Last Raven did it, where there were some environments where obstructions existed, and your boosters would eventually give out, forcing you to seek cover while you recharged. I remember doing some Kai matches versus Niji where he had this annoying railcannon on a tank AC which would constantly know where I'm flying and shoot for me there. I had to practically hug the giant bridge that we were fighting under, then take cover behind the walls surrounding it. It was very intense.

[Mom]

Railcannons tell you when they're firing. You shouldn't need cover vs them.

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

ac4 and fa benefited greatly from cover, especially ac4