Armored Core 5 Discussion

[Moon Walker]

I still don't get what's so bad about having a rock-paper-scissors concept in ACV. Or is he "wanting" that there will be a "king" AC so he can go around and "dominate"?

 

i still say it's probably the best idea yet that defense is divided up to KE/TE/CE. Even originally it already sported Solid and EN defense, it wasn't enough to see a dominant EN AC build ( for obvious reasons ) and because grenades, missiles, and whathaveyou were mostly considered Solid so it was suicidal to focus on EN defense. Even laser blades melt through EN defence heavies so that didn't help either.

 

At least with ACV, there's a better ... Trade offs for focusing on one type of weapon, you might still be able to make a one size fits all AC that can beat most designs but there will always be a more effective weapon/AC to beat a certain type of AC. For example, you might still be able to beat a KE-based AC with rifles and MGs ( KE weapons ) but it may not be as effective as say using lasers or heat weapons/rockets.

 

Let's not forget, we have OW that are semi-reliable even in one vs one situations so that says a lot about how well thought out this game was made. OWs and misc. Weapons such as jammers, sentries, EN amplifiers and ammo magazines. The combinations are endless with this much variety, I really don't get why there "should" be one dominant AC.

 

Maybe I'm just one of those who hate clone wars where they claim "that's where skill determines the winner/better person" but maybe it was due to first shot, or luck that one person goes exactly where the other wants him to at a certain moment, or it just depends on who got more hits, that wouldn't be enough to determine anyone's aptitude in using that particular AC. To some extent, I believe ACV will also put "knowledge"l and "experience" into play because you'd be utilizing whatever info you get from scan mode and react accordingly. Even if you didn't come prepared for a certain type of defense, or lack the proper counter weapons, you'd still have to figure out if attacking straight on ( because he doesn't have a weapon to exploit your weakness ) or play hit and run to avoid dying in 5 seconds.

 

I could go on and on but I'll save it for when I feel like typing long replies on my mobile phone >.<

[GodlyPerfection]

Yeah I'm with Pen and MoonWalker on this one... I'd prefer the rock/paper/scissors balancing as it allows a variety of designs to be played and people will play what they like rather than just the top tier stuff knowing that they still have an advantage to particular builds. Not a pure advantage, but enough to be exploited. I prefer to see people using something that fits their style rather than everyone trucking the top two or three designs.

[Genocide]

Here's an idea, if you want to try and determine skill. Cobble together a shit AC from low-tier parts, let everyone whos gonna compete train up on it, and then 1v1 in that set up. That way its not like tier-parts are ruining the assessment. Either way, seems kinda pointless. Lag will rob you, luck will screw you. It's a crap shoot on who wins any given match, 50% of the options on win/lose is 'lose'. Knowledge vs experience has been hashed out before, experience will give you an edge, definitely. If you had knowledge, it will eventually fail in the face of practical applications of said knowledge.

[Rachis]

I don't get how rock/paper/scissors balancing is a new concept. It's always been there. It just sounds like ACV takes it even further. Edited March 4, 2012 by Rachis

[Aokiryu89]

I don't get how rock/paper/scissors balancing is a new concept. It's always been there. It just sounds like ACV takes it even further. The people who have played only AC4/FA should probably stop commenting on the history of balance in AC.

 

I would like this explained by someone who has actively witnessed/participated 1v1 matches. Give us what the weaknesses are.

 

I can only guess that Quads are strong against slow moving opponents

And Light Bipeds may have an Advantage over RJs

Heavy RJs may have an advantage over HW Bipeds

Tanks clear advantage over MW, at least in the open areas

 

Hmm...I can't really say anything but I don't see any reason why a superior pilot with weapons that can break through any armor wouldn't come out on top vs someone with a mere leg advantage. Tank vs Quad seems like the only strong weakness from what I can gather from the demo but I'm probably way off with that too.

 

I do prefer the route MP is taking though, which is why I support it and don't have much care for 1v1. But if it's really that bad to the point I would lose against someone who only won because they had better parts I would see why people would be disappointed. (Better parts yet no skill to use them with).

 

And as far as I can gather this game requires a decent level of training before your adept at going back and forth into scan mode, hunting down an opponent, knowing what parts they have, where they may move on the battlefield. It's all very tactical, and requires full concentration in order to come out on top.

[Exorcet]

I get what you're saying Action man, but this form of online is preferable to AC4/FA's online, when Lag bladers were king and you couldn't even scrape the paint job of a dual OGOTO tank tread.

 

at least now you can deal with an "unkillable AC" by exploiting a counter. And future patches may alleviate the "Pokemon syndrome" that you say online suffers from.

 

Blades and dual OGOTO tanks were terrible in AC4. FA was the messed up game.

 

R-P-S is more interesting in a team enviroment though since it basically leaves it up to the teams to manipulate the match-up to their advantage. In 1 v1 it's less interesting because the advantages are static for the entire match.

 

Your just going to have to live with the fact that no matter what your AC is going to have a disadvantage toward another class. Which in my opinion is absolutely AWESOME.

 

Because everyone using the same fundamental build is what kills MP. And it was almost always a disadvantage with the AC games as a whole. There were always those parts that everyone would use that would make the rest of the inventory look like garbage. With this new system we will always see variations that will never disappear to a single standard king AC design.

 

It's only awesome when its a team game, otherwise it's stupid. Basically, you're almost garunteed to lose a certain percentage of matches and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

People using the best parts is not a bad thing. That comes from From balancing the game incorrectly. Variety must follow balance. If variety comes first, you often lose balance, and it makes the game boring because you end up having matches decided before they even begin. Which is what R-P-S 1v1 is. Even in an imbalanced game, if there is some top tier design, the fight at least comes down to player vs player.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Exorcet

[Aokiryu89]

So would it be possible to fix 1v1 while preserving Team V Team combat? Can a balance be struck?

[Mushinronja]

You can beat any leg type with another leg type, its just that certain legs are more suited to fight certain other legs.

 

I assume. I don't have the game yet.

[Aokiryu89]

You can beat any leg type with another leg type, its just that certain legs are more suited to fight certain other legs.

 

I assume. I don't have the game yet.

 

 

By what's being said, It seems that piloting skill is nearly being phased out by leg type advantages.

[exogen]

Hi Niji,

 

I have been playing the demo so mt response is going to be based on what you have said here, what I have seen from videos, what I understand from the demo, and inferences based on previous armored core knowledge that I have aquired through the years.

 

Who in their right mind uses high output generators. Are you people all dumb? Balanced and High Cap have been the only viable generators in the game since beta. I swear you must never come across jammer ACs and jammer turrets or something.

 

What do you expect to do vs an AC team that has someone running UGJ-22/H? That jammer causes you to lose 80% of your EN Output, which means you're gauranteed to go negative and start losing energy even if you stop boosting. UGN-70/Ho VITAL goes from 17,530 EN Output to 3506 EN Output when in the range of that jammer. Most ACs that get in that scenario have something like 10000-12000 drain on their frame, so you're going to start losing 7000-9000 EN per second. The pitiful jamming resistance on the HO generators means you're not going to be stopping those jammers at all. At best you might reduce it to like 70% EN Output loss using UGN-71 ROBUST generator.

 

Worse is that the HO generators have absolutely no cap, so it's almost gauranteed that you'll enter full genbust. You QB for 15000 EN into a jammer bubble, so now you're 60000 cap is down to about 45000 and then your AC suddenly has negative energy regen in the 7500 range. You have 6 seconds before your energy completely busts and you're forced to try and walk out of the generator jammer bubble (good fucking luck). You don't even have six seconds to respond either, since you have to QB before your energy runs out. More importantly, you may not even be able to leave the bubble because you may not have enough capacity left to do a full QB. ACV does not let you do half QBs. You have to have the full required energy to QB, and the same for jumping and wall jumping. Once you permabust, you die. There's nothing stopping the AC who dropped the first bubble on you from just following you and dropping more bubbles on your head while you're forced to walk away from the bubble. A combination of no reserve capacity and no jammer resistance makes the HO generators easy pickings for generator jammer bearing teams.

 

Jammers in this game are all serious shit. FCS jammers will fuck you up. Generator jammers will fuck you up. Movement jammers will fuck you up. Even Recon jammers can fuck you up (situational lololol). Don't underestimate jammers. My LW is entirely built around them with no actual weapons besides the ability to kick. It doesn't even use shoulder weapons, I have a dual shoulder subcomputer there to buff my teammates lock speeds instead. You would be amazed at how easy it is to kill handicapped people. Jammers make handicapped people.

 

Anyway, generally speaking the High Output (HO) generators are all used by backpedalers and snipers. This is because they allow you to keep distance pretty constantly and they're very good at providing energy when they're not near a generator jammer. The Balanced (BA) generators are used mostly for OWs, but they're still very good standard use generators due to having very high stats all around at the cost of a very heavy weight. BA generators are the go to generators for sane people who want a lot of output. The High Capacity (HC) generators are used for CQC and general close quarters combat more because they give you an enormous buffer cap with enormous jammer resistance and decent output for almost no weight at all.

 

Look at the HERZ GNE500 generator. That one is a favorite among the crazy jousters and CQC players for good reason. 14k output, 175k capacity, 1400 resistance, 400 weight. Compare that to the UGN-70/Ho VITAL generator. 17.5k output, 60k capacity, 500 resistance, 830 weight. Everything on it is distinctly worse for just 3.5k standard output, which is almost negligible when you play this game even remotely right (cover/wall jump). Take note that when the HERZ gets jammed it only loses 50% output or so (due to resists) compared to VITAL losing 75% or so, meaning it has more output while jammed than VITAL has and 3x the capacity. Much, much safer and half the weight.

 

If all you're doing is QBing everywhere, you deserve to run into a generator jammer and die a really faggy and lame death.

 

 

I take issue with this argument because I see it applying more/mostly to non-LW builds.. Disclaimer: I stress that I am speaking from the demo perspective so I must admit that I need to see all this stuff for myself in action to make a final judgment. I can't understand everything in the demo so I can;t say I understand this game completly. I am well aware that there are variables that I do not know about, as well as variables that I may or may not know about, that could make a significant difference in regards to this subject. Concider my criticizm to be based also on my past veteran experience with all of the AC games, save for the phone ones and FF. Also bare in mind that I am an above average player on the compedative side and have conciderable metagame knowledgde. Needless to say I could be wrong, and am aware that I have not played this game yet, yet I think my crediblity gives me the right to respond to this accusation about stupidity, especially that I have been of the opinion in other AC games that when one is running a LW one ought to use a HO gen. If I am totally wrong here, then please elaborate in terms of actual in-game practice why your theory necessarily holds true.

 

Your argument seams, as I understood it, to be that high output generators are strategic suicide because of the potency of generator jammers. The jammer neutralizes your output causing your current bar, whatever it is, to drop down quickly. Being that high output generators have low caps, as compared to high cap gens, high output gens are the most susceptible to these jammers. Therefore it makes sense to not use high output gens unless, as you said, you are a sniper or something that keeps running. Taking a CQC build into a match when generator jammers are present therefore requires the use of standard or high cap gens.

 

Note: my "zero" key is broken so I cant make proper parenthesis.

 

With that said, I have the following objections.

 

1. LW's, which would realistically be the only builds, save for runners and snipers and a few miscellaneous builds, to be running high output gens, are going to be moving fast, and if played correctly, should be covering allot of ground in a short amount of time. This means that the range for which one has to lay the jammers down must be greater to ensnare a fast moving LW. Also one must remember that a LW should be covering the the bubble, if not exceeding it in a single bound, so to speak. In other words, it makes sense to say that being that the LW will be covering allot of ground quickly, he has more of a chance to not get caught in one of those bubbles, or if he is, he is more likely to continue to sail on through, or be at the edge of the bubble where a jump would be enough to escape. Therefore this is not necessarily a serious problems for LW's running HO gens. Remember we are talking probablities here, as calculated not only by stats and facts, but in-game realities of practice(which includes incalcuable variables(.

 

2. A LW using a HO gen if he is able to QB or jump free has a greater chance of regaining his EN quicker assuming he does get free or if the enemy doesn't catch him with a direct hit, than someone using a high cap gen with lower reserves (a finner point I will touch on next(. Having a higher output is better if one does get free than if one gets free with a lower output gen.

 

 

3. The major assumption your making is that at the point where one gets hit by one of these things, one will also have a high enough reserve, even if running a high-cap gen, to sustain the blow. From what I can see, the likelihood is greater that one will get taken out by one of these things, in practice if one is using a high cap gen than a high output gen. You say CQC builds ought to be running high cap gens. While I won’t discount the point you made about that one gen that has four hundred weight because its weight is so low, and while I would agree with you if you’re talking about anything other than LW's, a LW ought to be running, in my opinion, a high output gen, assuming the player actually understands EN management and isn't therefore spamming QB and boost like a noob.

 

As a LW one should be continuously moving because one must be concerned with breaking locks, flanking, evasive maneuvers, getting in to get the drop on them etc. It has been my understanding for some time, as has been the understanding of other experienced CQC LW players, Pete, Impervious, for example, that running high output gens is always preferential to high-cap gens for two main reasons. a. With proper EN management, high cap gens are unnecessary. b. High output gens are better because given that LW's are lighter their movements are more efficient requiring less boost. However given their light armor they need to keep moving and HO gens enable one to do with proper EN management, whereas high cap gens inevitably run out which results in 1. a loss of applied pressure because the enemy AC can escape, which itself can lead to serious strategic disadvantages and 2. That at points where one gets caught, sometimes unavoidably or due to circumstance, in losing most of ones EN the pressure is on the LW, but now the LW cannot escape because his output sucks and his reserve is to low. Anyone with any skill with LW's knows that high output gens, assuming the game gives you a balanced choice between cap and output, is the way to go primarily.

 

If I am running a LW CQC build with a high cap gen I will inevitably run low on my cap, and will be perpetually running low, or not having a full charge, assuming I am keeping the pressure on, as I can do with a HO gen. The fact that I need to continuously move ensures that whatever I am doing, aside from hiding, I will mostly likely not have a full charge. Unless I am playing total hit and run followed by break periods, which assumes I am not being hunted down, I will be most likely running low on my cap, and if not, mid.

 

Therefore, in actual high intense gameplay where LW's are constantly on the move, as they should be, because taking breaks assumes they are actually safe and have the time to regain their EN, a time that only increases with high cap gens (not only because they have high caps because output sucks(, it is not likely that they will always have a full charge and more likely that their charge will be dwindled in actual battle. If their charge is less likely to be high, then it makes no difference which gen they have because their charge will be around the same as a HO gen anyway because anyone with any skill using a LW with a HO gen will have near full charge always anyway, and not have a full charge with a LW rocking a high cap gen due to intense action + the need for continuous movement.

 

Therefore it makes your argument void given that it assumes that these battles take place a static environment where one always has a full charge and overlooks which builds are likely to have a fuller charge than the other, when this is not necessarily the case. The likelihood is greater that a LW will be worse off with a high cap gen, given the crappy output and fact that LW's need to stay on the move.

 

4. Building on objection three, and again defending high output gens from a LW perspective, high-cap gens force one to take longer breaks, even if those breaks are not as often, where high output gens don't force you to take virtually any breaks at all, and even when they do they are only for a second or two (in scan mode in ACV(. That's the whole point of high output gens! And LW's are one of the weight class that is optimal for HO gens given that they have the least drain in the game. High cap gens, force you to take longer breaks more frequently, because the output on those gens sucks. If one manages one's EN correctly with a high output gen, one should almost never need to take a break, whereas high cap gens force you to take breaks inevitably. The durration you have is greater with a high-cap gen obviously, but this is of relative unimportance from what I see in this game and know from experience in older games, because the time when your EN runs out WILL COME.

 

If taking breaks becomes an inevitability with high cap gens, then one is more likely to be attacked by one of these jammers because one is a. Low on EN, and b. Stationary or not moving much. And remember one might run out or go low at any time during the fight, which forces one to play more defnsive in proactively preventing low reserve situations, which necessarly lowers one's pressure. Sure you can do short periods of asaults with a high-cap gen but you wont have endurance. On the other hand a LW with a high output gen and proper EN management should be on the move constantly and therefore is not likely to be at a stand-still to get crippled as easily.

 

4. Even if it is the case that Jammers completely make HO gens useless, no matter what build one has, (and while your argument cannot be discounted because it serves as a premise( all you are saying is that these jammers are broken! This was Bato/Pete's point when I ran what you said by him. He too raised the same objections I had in mind above, also coming from a tournament, team-play and overall compedative perspective.

 

5. If someone can just lay down more of these things, and if these things can catch you to begin with, and if these things are hence as devastating as you say they are, why would having a high cap make much of a difference because even if you do have a full or near full charge, you can still get rocked repeatedly because these jammers can be deployed repeatedly, resulting in a total gen bust anyway? That is, if it is so easy to take someone out, what is to stop the AC from following you and just dropping you again? And given that the high cap gens have crappy output anyway, it is not like your EN will be at full if you do get out of the bubble, and its not like you have great output to recover. Not to mention your probably going to burn your EN to escape, and if they just catch you again, your screwed anyway. This makes your argument moot.

 

___

 

I may have understood all the variables here, but if I am in error, and clearly one of the "dumb" people for rocking a high output gen on a CQC LW, please correct me and elaborate.

 

 

1v1 is not properly supported by this game's engine (i.e. mechanics and balance). AC leg classes and weight types are all designed as hard counters to other AC leg classes and weight types rather than soft counters. To facilitate a proper 1v1 in ACV you have to implement some serious bans into the game or your results will be highly erratic. It's best to think of it like this: each leg class available is a hard counter to two other leg classes, is about even with two other leg classes, and is hard countered by two other leg classes. There are seven leg classes, so it works out pretty well like that.

 

Again, I have the demo and have not been playing against people, but I just do see what your saying at all. Could you elaborate more on just exactly how one class is a counter to another and give an example?

[Bakuhatsu Pengin]

any thoughts on anything other than 1 leg type

[GodlyPerfection]

Exogen, before I get into this I do want to clear that I do play heavy LW CQC on the xbox side of things. And before I move on here are two videos of my gameplay utilizing High Cap (SONNE) and High Accel (Shinatsu) in the demo. The first uses burst centric damage to utilize Scan Mode Milking, and the second is more traditional AC4/FA CQC with continuous damage. The videos are intended just to show off movement rather than min-maxing damage.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9YO67kv8YM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih5tuabMaZ4

 

 

I never stop to take too long of a break in those videos. High Cap gens have enough output to support an aggressive LW with minimal breaks in between pursuits with proper Scan Mode usage while still keeping enough speed to avoid shots. Of course, the continuous damage video is against the terrible turning tank, but in an actual ranked match there will be longer breaks between pursuits. In my opinion High Out gens do not have too much more EN output than High Caps... at least not enough to make a significant difference.

 

QB costs and Scan mode make High Caps so much better. Scan mode makes up for the lack of EN output, while high QB costs means you need a substantial difference in output to really get any benefit out of it. With the small cap of High Out gens you also waste a lot of Scan Mode time with extra energy that just dissipates. It takes like a couple of seconds to fully regen a High Out gen and when that happens any extra energy you would get out of Scan Mode would go to waste. High Caps instead have the space to store all of that extra energy for additional bursts in pursuits.

 

Another thing is that QB is really only or emergency maneuvers now. With the efficiency, flexibility, and speed of the new overboost you will be using that much more so having a High Cap gen benefits that too as the High Out gens don't give you too much more OB time. OB works great as not only a method to initiate an unsuspecting pursuit (In addition to QBs), but it also allows you to quickly get out of a situation and gain that rest time that will allow you to recuperate. High Out gens don't have enough of a cap to allow you to initiate a pursuit with OB, keep continuous damage for a while, AND retreat for recuperation.

 

As far as jammers versus generators, the reason why High Out gens have a problem is because they have a low interference stat. A high interference stat more than makes up for the lack of output that High Cap gens have while in a jammer and they pretty much are given enough time to react to a jammer to not worry about the jammer putting them into a bad situation.

 

The amount of EN output you get in High Out gens does not give you enough output to keep up a true constant pursuit with continuous damage... especially with continuous damage since you don't have as much of a chance to Scan Mode Milk. CQC players HAVE to take a break eventually even with good EN management. They will get to a point where they need to take a step back or they will get caught in a bad situation. Caps give you this flexibility and buffer time to get out and take that break. And if you are going to be taking a break eventually anyway then you can use HIgh Caps and use those breaks in Scan Mode to make up for the slightly less output you have compared to High out gens. If you are going to be executing maneuvers to stay alive as a CQC player you will run out of EN quickly on a High Out and be stuck on pure refresh which is not enough to keep you mobile and dodging. High Cap gens give you the buffer to do this, High Out gens do not.

Edited March 5, 2012 by GodlyPerfection

[Atari]

Demo vs actual game.

[exogen]

Hi, GodlyPerfection,

 

Thanks for the response. I want to stress again that this argument is more speculation, being that all of us don't have the game yet and have not played it out for some time to really have a good foot-hold on what is brokan or tier and why.

 

Exogen, before I get into this I do want to clear that I do play heavy LW CQC on the xbox side of things. And before I move on here are two videos of my gameplay utilizing High Cap (SONNE) and High Accel (Shinatsu) in the demo. The first uses burst centric damage to utilize Scan Mode Milking, and the second is more traditional AC4/FA CQC with continuous damage. The videos are intended just to show off movement rather than min-maxing damage.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9YO67kv8YM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih5tuabMaZ4

 

The same scan mode milking that is done in the first video would give you full cap had you had the VITAL, and you could have done everything you did in that video as well. I don't see anything in that vid that negates the fact that with EN management you can do all the same stuff and yet keep going. If anything the first video only reinforces my point that high caps inevitably end up with serious downtime. Why? Because the AC in that video is a AI who does nothing but jump around all day so of course its easy to manage you EN on him! Change that situation to one where your enemy is a human that keeps on you and now when you run out you had better have cover. But what if the enemy is still on you, or what if they are running away. I haven't seen anything in that first vid that negated the arguments I gave.

 

In regards to the second vid, notice how in each fight your progressively getting closer and closer to the end of your bar? That is because your output sucks because the emphasis is on cap for your gen and not output.

 

 

I never stop to take too long of a break in those videos. High Cap gens have enough output to support an aggressive LW with minimal breaks in between pursuits with proper Scan Mode usage while still keeping enough speed to avoid shots. Of course, the continuous damage video is against the terrible turning tank, but in an actual ranked match there will be longer breaks between pursuits. In my opinion High Out gens do not have too much more EN output than High Caps... at least not enough to make a significant difference.

 

See, I just don't see what your saying at all in regards to the longer breaks. If anything vids I have been watching made by Japanese (the good ones anyway( only showcase to me why high cap gens are not optimal for the CQC LW. As I said before, your vids only show the progressive loss of reserve that you never get back BECAUSE you never stop moving for to long. As for there being longer rest periods in actual person vs. person play, I think my experience would suggest that the rest breaks are random and therefore cannot be factored in to be in harmony with the stats. We don't live in an ideal world and my experience tells me that either 1. the breaks will come at the wrong times and 2. will result in either a. a loss of applied pressure on my part or b. the pressure will be on me because I don't have any more EN to get away.

 

Dodging in reality won’t be like those dumb AI's. With drift turn, counter OB and some QB, ground fighting will force you to keep moving, and with your high cap you will inevitably be forced to run out. Both of your vids only show that with continuous movement there is a progressive trend towards a loss of EN even with short breaks and scan-mode milking. Rocking the VITAL you would have full bars off of all the breaks you took each time and would have enough cap to do all the things you did, assuming you were using SHINATSU in the case of OB, being that the GALE is highly drainy in that regard, even though it has better part equip drain.

 

QB costs and Scan mode make High Caps so much better. Scan mode makes up for the lack of EN output, while high QB costs means you need a substantial difference in output to really get any benefit out of it. With the small cap of High Out gens you also waste a lot of Scan Mode time with extra energy that just dissipates. It takes like a couple of seconds to fully regen a High Out gen and when that happens any extra energy you would get out of Scan Mode would go to waste. High Caps instead have the space to store all of that extra energy for additional bursts in pursuits.

 

I just don't see this playing out in practice in my own experience, in the jap vids, or in your vid. I see a progressive loss of EN using a high cap gen under continuous movement, which is, well, as it is SUPPOSED to be. Saying that your forced to be in scan mode more with the high output gen is a mistake because any playing ought to whore scan mode as much as possible anyway, so I don't see that being any diference.

 

It sounds like the argument you are making has absoluetly nothing to do with the jammer argument supplied by Niji. Your saying there is no reason to use high outpit gens on a CQC LW at all!! I disagree with this.

 

Another thing is that QB is really only or emergency maneuvers now. With the efficiency, flexibility, and speed of the new overboost you will be using that much more so having a High Cap gen benefits that too as the High Out gens don't give you too much more OB time. OB works great as not only a method to initiate an unsuspecting pursuit (In addition to QBs), but it also allows you to quickly get out of a situation and gain that rest time that will allow you to recuperate. High Out gens don't have enough of a cap to allow you to initiate a pursuit with OB, keep continuous damage for a while, AND retreat for recuperation.

 

QB is not what it was in AC4 and FA granted, and on the ground OB is the way to go for the most part + jumps. But when your in the air, as you will be in many maps, QB is your only source of maneuvering. I have seen plenty of air combat vids. I disagree with just about everything else you say about the duration of the cap as it relates to OB. I can go for very long with Shinatsu and when I do stop I go into scan mode and my EN is back up before I have stopped moving, so what is the problem?

 

As far as jammers versus generators, the reason why High Out gens have a problem is because they have a low interference stat. A high interference stat more than makes up for the lack of output that High Cap gens have while in a jammer and they pretty much are given enough time to react to a jammer to not worry about the jammer putting them into a bad situation.

 

What exactly does this interference stat do? Are you saying that it gives you more time before your gen cap is dropped or something like that?

 

The amount of EN output you get in High Out gens does not give you enough output to keep up a true constant pursuit with continuous damage... especially with continuous damage since you don't have as much of a chance to Scan Mode Milk. CQC players HAVE to take a break eventually even with good EN management. They will get to a point where they need to take a step back or they will get caught in a bad situation. Caps give you this flexibility and buffer time to get out and take that break. And if you are going to be taking a break eventually anyway then you can use HIgh Caps and use those breaks in Scan Mode to make up for the slightly less output you have compared to High out gens. If you are going to be executing maneuvers to stay alive as a CQC player you will run out of EN quickly on a High Out and be stuck on pure refresh which is not enough to keep you mobile and dodging. High Cap gens give you the buffer to do this, High Out gens do not.

 

Why don't you have as much of a chance for scanmode milk? You should be milking it constantly during the fight. In fact, I thought you weren't milking it enough during the fight I saw. I think your basing this more on your play style.

 

__

 

Your argument is basically that there is no reason, generator jammers aside, to be running a high output gen as a CQC LW. You think that cap is insuficient in the case of the VITAL to allow for continuous play. But you overlook what I am talking about in regards to EN management. If you manage your EN correctly, you should be able to keep moving and never stop. I can do everything you do in thaat video and than some and I DON'T run out of EN.

 

Concider this, In AC4 you were forced to run (on the ps3 side because we never got beyond 1.4( high cap cap gens like GANO. I used to run these things untill I relised that something like maxwell was actually better once I got good at managing my EN. In FA 1.O-1 to 1.1 I ran high output gens ONLY on my LW builds and never ran out because I learned to whore glide-times so well. The same applies here.

 

Edit: I want to point out that my origional post was on the issue of high cap vs. low cap as it applies to LW CQC builds in regards to the JAMMER issue, NOT an argument about which generator is better as far as CQC LW's are concerned, which is what you are making this into. You touched on the issue of resitence, but you need to elaborate on that more, otherwise you haven't really scratched my arguments. Granted, if you made the argument that CQC builds are better off with high cap gens which, if correct, nullifies the points I made about jammers being that high cap gens are optimal (according to you( to begin with. But if your argument fails, which I think it does, than my argumets still stand and you have not responded to them.

Edited March 5, 2012 by exogen

[GodlyPerfection]

It is based on individual style. I'm trying to point out that in various circumstances and based on style a High Cap can run just as efficiently as a High Out when used properly. High Caps give you the ability to have high spikes in aggression. If you try to spike aggression with a High Out you end up running out of cap and losing that tempo. While High Outs promote more constant pressure, High Caps can apply more aggressive pressure due to the cap size. The output difference is not enough. In the videos I get closer and closer to red zone because I am learning to more efficiently utilize the energy that I have. I force myself to play more aggressively and live in the red zone in the demo to force myself to perfect more efficient techniques and live with the lower output in order to have that added flexibility in a combat situation to apply more pressure if I need to.

 

In a real game there are natural pauses in the fight and the High Cap can take advantage of those natural pauses by storing the extra energy away for another pursuit. I tried playing the same way I do with the High Outs and I was able to play close to what I was playing, but not quite. Those are older videos and I've gotten better since then. With High Outs I can't stretch the limits like I can with a High Cap and when I do I suffer for it. There will be times in combat where you have to up your movement to avoid things in the last minute and when you are already playing as efficient as possible and stretching the limits of the High Out you can't afford to spike your movement in the last second.

 

On average a High Out can keep higher average pressure so in a sustained fight the High Out holds out. But that is only the case if the fight is one long sustained pursuit. You can only keep a perfect long sustained pursuit against players who do not have the tracking to keep up with you and you can stay out of their lockbox. Against players that can get a shot on you and keep you in their sights you need to apply more pressure to break through their initial back pedaling then from there you can keep your tempo. High Outs can't put this additional pressure to break through, while High Caps can. While a High Out is using what they can to try to break through and out of a lock box a good back pedaler can OB back and keep you just enough at bay to force you to use your Cap in EN and then capitalize on it. I've played against some amazing back pedalers and with the ability to OB backwards they are going to get worse and you are going to need the extended Cap bar just to break through initially in order to stay out of their lock box. Once you get out of their lockbox then High Out has the advantage in sustaining it, but a High Cap has a better chance of having the EN Cap to break through in the first place. No matter how EN efficient you are if you don't have the Cap to break through a good back pedaler initially then you are going to find yourself in a bad matchup.

 

And that interference stat reduces the effect of the jammers period. The amount of resistance you get in a High Cap results in the High Cap having better EN output while in a jammer than a High Out in a jammer. That is what Niji was trying to point out. I was stacking that benefit on top of what I've explained above. In my speculation and based on my style High Caps will be better for LW CQC players because the EN Cap you get on a High Out doesn't give you the flexibility to break through a good back pedaling game. Good back pedalers can also take advantage of the knowledge that you have a High Out by dropping a jammer in front of them as they back away and as you approach to make you miss that last QB to try to break through and then hit you with a stun weapon as they switch out their jammer. If a back pedaler can see you coming then you are going to have a hard time with a High Out.

 

Now to find a good middle ground the KV-3D3/PROCHNYI has 50K more cap than UGN-70/Ho VITAL, but does not lose that much output. The problem is managing the weight to use something like that. I'm speculating that 110K will be enough to break through back pedalers and the output post patch of the KV-3D3/PROCHNYI should be enough to keep a similar aggressive game as High Outs would provide. Again the weight is the limiting factor, but I think in general that would be the best to meet all strengths. Enough Out to keep a heavy aggressive game similar to High Outs and enough Cap to break through initial back pedaling tricks similar to High Caps. It also has the third best interference which gives it a cancellation to jammers as well.

 

 

EDIT: I am a chainbooster by heart so that bigger Cap bar is friendly to my style. Like I said at the beginning personal style/preference does carry a lot of weight in the decision of boosters/generators.

 

LATE EDIT: WOOT!!! Just hit 100 posts for member.

Edited March 5, 2012 by GodlyPerfection

[Red Shirt (Grayscale)]

Yeah, PROCHNYI is god.

 

If someone were to jam you while using high output/low resist generators, you're less likely to survive because they'll just drain the crap out of your EN easily. Plus your movement and your boost speed will be significanty reduced; save for QB, which you'll need, but then you won't have enough EN. Just because you escaped from one ECM'd area doesn't mean your enemy won't continuously do that to you. Not to mention it's fired like a gun iirc, altough only having a limited range.

 

That enough should limit your movement and get beaten to a pulp by a bunch of jihadists, what's worse is getting stunned by a few shots whilst trying to escape. If you have that godly PROCHNYI with you. which has one of the highest jamming resist stat available, coupled with a good output and large cap, getting jamming only will only feel like you're boosting with a BIRDIE2+FUDOH in ACLR. The only disadvantage is that you need to add about 400 weight for your AC (compared to the other generators), but weight is just something to consider if you want to carry more stuff.

 

 

Edit: Btw, anyone practicing/doing their shit in ACV these days? Might probably be a good time for the importers to go crazy for more battle experience when it gets localized. Last I saw a couple of weeks ago, not much were playing.

 

But who the fuck am I kidding, I haven't been touching the game as well anyway.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Red Shirt (Grayscale)

[GodlyPerfection]

They just uploaded a Now Playing: Armored Core V on Gamespot of the English version. Enjoy folks. I re-uploaded it to youtube for your viewing pleasure. Youtube is much more flexible than other viewers so hope this helps. 15 more days!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB8viPSvGuw

[Pendragon]

I like the english voices they chose. They're not the HIGHEST quality, but I enjoy a little british acting in my AC games.

[Mushinronja]

Liking the banter, adds more characterization. I would like even more chatter from your side and the enemy's though, like in Ace Combat 5 for example:

 

(mission starts at 1:25)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOPOSAwDHjc

 

 

Though hearing the same stuff over and over again each time you play the mission may be tedious, idk. Things like the enemy reacting to your attacks would be good, and perhaps everytime you play it could be different based on what route you take. Just random thoughts, lol.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Mushinronja

[Red Shirt (Grayscale)]

I'd pay twice if they had the English voices from Metal Wolf Chaos.

[Genocide]

I like the mission select interface, it looks like they took SL, LR and NX and mashed those together to form ACV's menu screen. Also, the duel missions remind me of LR a ton. I'm pretty stoked for NA release; is the lag really bad with people from the same region, or could you tell?

[Aokiryu89]

When it came to Armored Core I always loved banter in the Story Modes. Didn't make me feel like the lone soldier stuck with no help.

 

And argh that retarded monkey on that Gamespot Video. See this is what I'm saying, most of the NA region buyers wont have a flipping clue about how to play the game. They'll play online, loose terribly, throw a fit and turn the game in without even bothering to give the game a real chance.

[GodlyPerfection]

When it came to Armored Core I always loved banter in the Story Modes. Didn't make me feel like the lone soldier stuck with no help.

 

And argh that retarded monkey on that Gamespot Video. See this is what I'm saying, most of the NA region buyers wont have a flipping clue about how to play the game. They'll play online, loose terribly, throw a fit and turn the game in without even bothering to give the game a real chance.

 

Yeah the dude was an idiot... lol. At least we got to see English footage. I actually don't mind the voice acting this time around.

[Aokiryu89]

My sense of humor is pretty broad, so I generally don't mind the silly jokes English voice actors crack because they know they couldn't exactly top the original performance. I'm still curious as to who the hell is going to be the voice actor for MR CRAZY. I don't know the character name I'm pretty sure Niji said but I'd rather just call him Mr Crazy for now.

 

It's pretty hard to pull of the special amount of twang in that guy's voice. Specially since I don't know what he's saying exactly.

[exogen]

GodlyPerfection,

 

congrads on your one hundred post mark being reached!!

 

Anyways

 

It is based on individual style. I'm trying to point out that in various circumstances and based on style a High Cap can run just as efficiently as a High Out when used properly. High Caps give you the ability to have high spikes in aggression. If you try to spike aggression with a High Out you end up running out of cap and losing that tempo. While High Outs promote more constant pressure, High Caps can apply more aggressive pressure due to the cap size. The output difference is not enough. In the videos I get closer and closer to red zone because I am learning to more efficiently utilize the energy that I have. I force myself to play more aggressively and live in the red zone in the demo to force myself to perfect more efficient techniques and live with the lower output in order to have that added flexibility in a combat situation to apply more pressure if I need to.

 

But by your own rationale, high output gens would have to regain their EN quicker if played efficiently - which begs the question, is "aggression," as you put it, necessary, or can one play a different style?

 

But what exactly do you we by "aggression?"

 

Ah yes, I think you actually spell it out here.

 

EDIT: I am a chainbooster by heart so that bigger Cap bar is friendly to my style. Like I said at the beginning personal style/preference does carry a lot of weight in the decision of boosters/generators.

 

So you admit that you have a bias in terms of style.

 

In a real game there are natural pauses in the fight and the High Cap can take advantage of those natural pauses by storing the extra energy away for another pursuit. I tried playing the same way I do with the High Outs and I was able to play close to what I was playing, but not quite. Those are older videos and I've gotten better since then. With High Outs I can't stretch the limits like I can with a High Cap and when I do I suffer for it. There will be times in combat where you have to up your movement to avoid things in the last minute and when you are already playing as efficient as possible and stretching the limits of the High Out you can't afford to spike your movement in the last second.

 

Fair enough, but why is your style, which obviously goes with your choice of boosters and gens better than mine or anyone elses?

 

The question I have for you also is, why can't my style be considered "aggressive" as well; why is chain boosting the only way one can play "aggressive?"

 

I don't see you offering a definitive reason as to why your style is strategically superior to mine. In AC4, which is very similar to this game, and focused even more on QB, I and many other top players on the NA PS3 side did not use chain boosting as the basis of our styles i.e. Myself, Impervious, Bato, Ultibreaker, etc. On the other hand I know other good players who chain boosted, namely the Japanese, but also a good friend of mine on PSN named ZIZI (who is also a Japanese but moved to TX a few years ago( and he plays a heavy chain boosting style. He would have to be considered "aggressive" by your standards, and yet I and he would be even with one another. My style used a more efficient use of movement which focused more on micromanaging the positioning and angle game, where as his focused more on QB chains to force his position. Both styles were compatible and neither could be said to be "superior" to the other, at least not obviously. So I don't see any reason to say that your style is superior to mine.

 

If you can’t offer any reason why your preference for CQC LW's is strategically better than mine, your argument amounts to nothing but the affirmation of your own subjective choice in play style, and hence design type.

Therefore, you give no reason why HO gens are worse off based solely on play styles.

 

On average a High Out can keep higher average pressure so in a sustained fight the High Out holds out. But that is only the case if the fight is one long sustained pursuit. You can only keep a perfect long sustained pursuit against players who do not have the tracking to keep up with you and you can stay out of their lockbox. Against players that can get a shot on you and keep you in their sights you need to apply more pressure to break through their initial back pedaling then from there you can keep your tempo. High Outs can't put this additional pressure to break through, while High Caps can. While a High Out is using what they can to try to break through and out of a lock box a good back pedaler can OB back and keep you just enough at bay to force you to use your Cap in EN and then capitalize on it. I've played against some amazing back pedalers and with the ability to OB backwards they are going to get worse and you are going to need the extended Cap bar just to break through initially in order to stay out of their lock box. Once you get out of their lockbox then High Out has the advantage in sustaining it, but a High Cap has a better chance of having the EN Cap to break through in the first place. No matter how EN efficient you are if you don't have the Cap to break through a good back pedaler initially then you are going to find yourself in a bad matchup.

 

In ACV you can stay in scan mode, which gives you virtually unlimited EN, especially with the HO gen VITAL, until you get in close range. There would be no reason NOT to be in scan mode unless you are ready to fire anyway so the point you make is sort of moot being that I would not be out of scan mode when closing distance on the backpedaler. Even going by your rationale, if you have a high cap gen you will burn a good portion of it getting in their and have less charge to maintain the fight, so your reserve will probably be closer to what you would have on full charge of a high output gen anyway. The only difference will be that now once close and not on a full bar your output sucks so whatever you have it will be out quick, forcing you to take a break and letting the backpedaler escape. Not so with the HO gen because you will be recharging quicker.

 

In AC4 where you were forced to use high cap gens the whole problem there was using EN to get close and then not having the output to keep the fight going. Something like maxwell on 1.4 and prior did not have that problem. When I ran the GANO gens I always used the lighter version because even though its output and cap was smaller its light weight gave me more glide-time and practically more output.

 

 

And that interference stat reduces the effect of the jammers period. The amount of resistance you get in a High Cap results in the High Cap having better EN output while in a jammer than a High Out in a jammer. That is what Niji was trying to point out. I was stacking that benefit on top of what I've explained above. In my speculation and based on my style High Caps will be better for LW CQC players because the EN Cap you get on a High Out doesn't give you the flexibility to break through a good back pedaling game. Good back pedalers can also take advantage of the knowledge that you have a High Out by dropping a jammer in front of them as they back away and as you approach to make you miss that last QB to try to break through and then hit you with a stun weapon as they switch out their jammer. If a back pedaler can see you coming then you are going to have a hard time with a High Out.

 

Ok, now you are finally making an argument that isn't based on purely subjective stylistic preference. But what it sounds like to me is that you guys are basically saying that the interference stat just balances out so that your output will be roughly the same no matter what gen you have, or roughly speaking that principle holds true. So the high output gen having a poor interference will regain EN roughly as fast as a high cap gen with poor output, but a better interference stat, in actual combat while under attack by a jammer. That just means that all other things being equal, the CQC LW with the high output gen will regain his EN just as fast as a CQC LW with a high cap gen that has the inverse stats.

 

That means that the output will be roughly the same, all things being equal, because the interference stat is just there to make sure that everyone who gets hit by the thing has roughly the same EN output problem regardless of generator choice, making the output part of this discussion irrelevant.

If that is true, then it pushes the discussion into the issue of caps.

 

and

 

If that is true, or if the game roughly follows that model, then my arguments I posted initially still apply regardless of the fact about the interference stats. You still have not responded to my initial arguments and neither has anyone else.

 

 

Yeah, PROCHNYI is god.

 

If someone were to jam you while using high output/low resist generators, you're less likely to survive because they'll just drain the crap out of your EN easily. Plus your movement and your boost speed will be significanty reduced; save for QB, which you'll need, but then you won't have enough EN. Just because you escaped from one ECM'd area doesn't mean your enemy won't continuously do that to you. Not to mention it's fired like a gun iirc, altough only having a limited range.

 

That enough should limit your movement and get beaten to a pulp by a bunch of jihadists, what's worse is getting stunned by a few shots whilst trying to escape. If you have that godly PROCHNYI with you. which has one of the highest jamming resist stat available, coupled with a good output and large cap, getting jamming only will only feel like you're boosting with a BIRDIE2+FUDOH in ACLR. The only disadvantage is that you need to add about 400 weight for your AC (compared to the other generators), but weight is just something to consider if you want to carry more stuff.

 

 

Edit: Btw, anyone practicing/doing their shit in ACV these days? Might probably be a good time for the importers to go crazy for more battle experience when it gets localized. Last I saw a couple of weeks ago, not much were playing.

 

But who the fuck am I kidding, I haven't been touching the game as well anyway.

 

Did you look at the 5 or so arguments I made above in response to the jammer argument Niji gave? I posted rebutals to what you said already.